Hey FWR - "We need both sides to live with some compromise "

[pombear]

Warning: This thread will spontaneously combust after 10 posts!

As part of this 'complex subject' a poster started a thread to highlight that a trans activist appeared to have posted a twitter gif that implied they were 'dancing on the grave' of a prominent feminist who sadly died today.

The thread was deleted with this message:

Message from MNHQ: We're sorry to hear some users are not happy with our modding of trans discussions, and our updated Talk Guidelines.
This is a complex subject which is very hard to moderate, and since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward.
We realise that this will likely be frustrating to many, but we are convinced that our goal must be to support civil and constructive debate.

Civil and constructive debate?

Women point out destructive and uncivil debate from a trans rights activist,

Women also point out the biological sex of this activist.

Women are deleted and schooled in how they must refer to this destructive and uncivil 'debater.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Women - shut up, compromise, live with the 'contradiction' (in this case, does it mean you must only talk about the person who is shitting all over women's spaces and rights if we use the right pronoun?)

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction

This has exactly what to do with being cross when an unpleasant person with XY chromosomes celebrates the untimely death of a feminist?

Exactly what?

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Contradiction meaning it is one position or another, with no in-between. For example whether you can call a male person 'he' when he wants you to call him 'she', or not.
Mumsnet have chosen the side that says you have to call him what he wants, not what you can see he is.
The side that says we have to call a bearded be-penised rapist 'she' if that's what he demands.
What are you thinking, MN?

@mnhq @Flissmumsnet
Can i ask if the rules about having TWO moderators confirm deletions was followed on that thread?
The reason for the deletion wasn't posted in the thread first, which seems to be a pretty standard step when deleting.
Is this a shoddy misstep in the actual procedure?

This is a very complex subject

I can see it's complex if we're discussing whether a person who is male but has had extensive surgery etc and generally passes for an actual woman should be using the women's toilets. Or whether we should call him he or she.

But it's not complex when it comes to whether we should be allowed to call him he. By saying we can't call males 'he' if they want us to pretend they're a woman, you are signing up to that political view.

After thinking about it it's not a hill I'm willing to die on.
TRAs will just see us as spitting vipers.
And there are plenty of other descriptors for McKinnon. Here's a few...
Wanker, arsehole, pathetic fuckwit, egomaniac, narcissist, cheat, dickhead (whoops that might get me banned), bastard, sad, jerk, dipstick....

Hey MNHQ - how about you be a bit more Magdalen? What a legacy that would be.

THIS^ with ovaries on!

I’d rather be rude than be a fucking liar

Just chiming in to point out the coercive effect of this on trans widows.

If our ex's were the public figures they would no doubt like to be (and who knows, that they might be already, as at least one of us has had to see her ex being the subject of a TV documentary) then we would be deleted / banned for referring to them by the pronouns that reflect our own, lived experience and that of our children.

I just want to be very clear about this.

No allowance is to be made for longstanding community members if they lose their tempers and forget the parsing-bloody-reality rules when an awful person with XY chromosomes posts a gif of dancing on a grave on the day a feminist beloved by those longstanding community members dies far too early?

MNHQ has the back of the person who celebrates a death and not the backs of its longstanding community members?

Have I got that right?

(For the record, I'm grey rocking awful people with XY chromosomes so wasn't even on the damn deleted thread. So double well done, MNHQ. Cos I'm now on this one.)

I’d rather be rude than be a fucking liar

This. In 50 foot high letters. RIP Magdalen. I think the numerous problems with this ideology are clear to many on occasions like this.

If we can't call men who say they're women, men... then the discussion is dead on here. Because that's the whole point of it.

Disappointed.
The deleted thread should have been allowed to stand. If we can’t rightly condemn the cowardly, despicable actions of someone who sees fit to post that gif, then the moderators needs to go on the Freedom Programme or declare FWR is actually TWR and do away with the myth that this is feminist space.

I'll eat all the sombreros if a certain cyclepath has ever once been recorded compromising with GC feminists.

Id rather be respectfully truthful than be a fucking liar

This is a complex subject

No. No it isn't. Human beings can't change sex. Men are not women. Women are not men. People who post gifs of skeletons dancing on graves in relation to the death of a thoroughly decent young woman are despicable scum who are unworthy of anyones respect.

Stop pretending it's hard. It isn't. For gods sake grow up.

So, I didn't see the thread but it sounds like a poster came on here to draw attention to the fact that some quite nasty person or persons were celebrating the tragic death of a young woman. When other posters came along to agree that this was despicable behaviour MN decided that such posters were being intolerant and deleted the thread??

Wow, this is a new low.

Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.

You take a step forward and he takes a step back.

Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.

I’d rather be rude than be a fucking liar

RIP

Really fucked off that thread was pulled.

• Just chiming in to point out the coercive effect of this on trans widows.

If our ex's were the public figures they would no doubt like to be (and who knows, that they might be already, as at least one of us has had to see her ex being the subject of a TV documentary) then we would be deleted / banned for referring to them by the pronouns that reflect our own, lived experience and that of our children.*

I'll generally do the pronoun avoidance dance, but if this situation arises I'm damned if I will.

Women talking with women, innit.

Can't be tolerated.

Not on Mumsnet.

Ok MNHQ, you show me where the person who has posted that meme has ‘compromised’ with women who understand the needs of actual women and i’ll agree all the way. If you can’t, then it shows your fear of men. Are trans people still ‘the most oppressed’?

Vomit worthy. You just told women who were stunned at the wickedness of a man gloating over the death of a young woman that they were being uncivil and should compromise.

That isn't complicated. It's absolutely fucking, fucking disgusting.

Is this like, we mustn't draw attention to the bad behaviour of men, celebrating the death of a woman, as it makes all men looks bad?

As it looks very fucking like it.

Freedom Programme.

I'll happily donate a few pounds to the mumsnet training budget if you can't afford it.

As you can't see the fucking wood for the fucking trees.

It’s not hate to,defend your rights and it’s not hate to speak the truth