Hey FWR - "We need both sides to live with some compromise "

[pombear]

Warning: This thread will spontaneously combust after 10 posts!

As part of this 'complex subject' a poster started a thread to highlight that a trans activist appeared to have posted a twitter gif that implied they were 'dancing on the grave' of a prominent feminist who sadly died today.

The thread was deleted with this message:

Message from MNHQ: We're sorry to hear some users are not happy with our modding of trans discussions, and our updated Talk Guidelines.
This is a complex subject which is very hard to moderate, and since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward.
We realise that this will likely be frustrating to many, but we are convinced that our goal must be to support civil and constructive debate.

Civil and constructive debate?

Women point out destructive and uncivil debate from a trans rights activist,

Women also point out the biological sex of this activist.

Women are deleted and schooled in how they must refer to this destructive and uncivil 'debater.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Women - shut up, compromise, live with the 'contradiction' (in this case, does it mean you must only talk about the person who is shitting all over women's spaces and rights if we use the right pronoun?)

ALittlleBitofVitriol:

Yes, I agree with what you say.

I missed this.

But have now seen the gif McKinnon has posted. A man in a skeleton outfit dancing with a grave-digging spade, on a grave.

Right after claiming that some people's death is worth celebrating. Meaning Magdalen.

HQ - I know this issue can be tricky, but this behaviour really, really isn't.

If you truly have to find some other justification for allowing your members to be outraged over someone celebrating the death of a young woman, please remember, it's not illegal to misgender. You can't be sued. If McKinnon tries, no court in the land would uphold it. And your positive publicity would be phenomenal.

Otherwise just ask yourselves what is decent?

RIP Magdalen Berns.

I am Spartacus

Thankyou Magdalen 🌺

since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Here's the thing. We've all bent over backwards to follow guidelines. I've always given MNHQ the benefit of the doubt in keeping the FWR board going, when almost every other space online has been shut down, or banned us for daring to discuss the biggest threat to our rights in living history.

But you cannot 'square' a vile, misogynist creep and friends, laughing and joking about the tragic death of a young woman, on the day of her passing.

You cannot 'square' a mentality with no other way to describe it than indefensible, sickening, hideous and absolutely indicative of the utter, screaming contempt in which RM holds women. In my opinion, RM loathes and hates women with every fibre of their being and we are expected by you, to be respectful and compromise in return.

I read the news about Magdalen when I arrived at work this morning. I didn't cry until I read this thread.

Until I realised how low and desperate the TRAs have become that they would weaponise a young woman's tragic death and throw it in our faces.

And that you would expect us to find some imaginary middle ground, where we 'square' our position with a person that I can only describe as an empty shell. Because a person with even an ounce of humanity, wouldn't even consider such a soulless post.

RM spits in the face of our collective grief, and you want us to 'compromise'. For the love of God, think what you are asking.

No one in the entire history of the world has ever changed sex. Not event the arse Mck.

Every single human ever born was grown in and birthed by a woman.

There is no nuance or other side.

Its been a dreadful day. A true shero and incredible woman has died and horrible people are publicly celebrating that. And MN are participating in shutting down our expressions of anger & grief.

This is like when that Judge ordered Maria MacLachlan to refer to her attacker using "female pronouns"

Several people are saying on this thread that @Mumsnet is afraid of being sued by McKinnon because of being "misgendered" on that thread and that is the reason that the thread was deleted. (I didn't see it BTW)

Genuine question: on what legal basis could McKinnon sue Mumsnet because of "misgendering" on a thread?

eg. Why would it be OK, hypothetically, to say, "McKinnon is a psychopathic slimeball" but not, "Mr McKinnon is a psychopathic slimeball"?

One of the many things that concerns me is, this is a parenting site, right? And presumably not only most members but many of the mod and management team are mothers, right? Given that, what message does it send to the children for whom we are collectively responsible to favor the feelings of an individual who would use a young person's tragic death to try to score political points over the feelings of those grieving her death? What message does it send when the users here are allowed to refer to some males as men, the ones who aren't very powerful, the ones who don't have connections or powerful friends or the power of the internet outrage mob behind them, but if a particular male falls into the "has power and might try to use it against you" group then those same users are instructed to be kind, be quiet, compromise, try to find a "common ground" in which you give the angry, aggressive person whatever they want so they'll leave you alone (and choose a different target - we all know the aggression doesn't stop, it just get redirected)? Is the message contained in those actions not that if a bully has enough power you can't possibly stand up to them, so you should attempt to appease them instead? Does anyone honestly think that's a good message for all of us, collectively, to be sending to the children in our care? And are we in fact sending that message to all those children, or only to the girls?

A little reflection is in order, I think, and not on the part of the commenters who're angry about McKinnon's behavior.

"I read the news about Magdalen when I arrived at work this morning. I didn't cry until I read this thread."

Same.

Thank you, Magdalen, for saying the unspeakable truth.

It should not be forgotten, either, MNHQ, that on a Mother’s Day in America, this vile male posted a video advising trans children to run away from home to find their “glitter family.”

FFS. This is a parenting site. To have a child run away is one of the greatest griefs a mother can experience.

Right up there, perhaps, with having a child die young of glioblastoma.

I’m old enough Magdalen Berns could have been my daughter. Right now, I know I can’t begin to plumb the depths of the grief her mother is feeling.

I only hope to god she’s not a Mumsnetter and is unaware of this post.

How dare you. As a mother, I ask: how very dare you?

Just adding my voice to others’.

I’m stunned by all Rhys.

^^that's a surprisingly apt autocorrect!!

I’m stunned by all this. First the public comment from the bollocked bicyclist. Vile. Who would post that? Even if they thought it? And the fact that a site FOR MOTHERS can’t comment on how despicable that is... unbelievable.

I am Spartacus.

Pretty stunned.

Twitter allows public celebration of someone's death. Mumsnet does not allow condemnation of that, or to refer to a male as a man? Or something.

Even the TRA’s have started backing away from McKinnon. Only the really dangerous misogynistic men who openly want women killed are left.

And MN it would seem.

I am @VanBeeterfen@spinster xyz

I am Spartacus

I know a lot of traffic comes via FWR, but is it enough to make it worthwhile? Commercially, I mean.

Perhaps FWR generates 20% of ad revenue but incurs 80% of payroll expense. I do not think MN see the safeguarding issues we do (because twaw), and it shows.

I have not rtft but I met Madeline once and shook her hand. Thankyou Madeline. She didn''t take no shit that brave woman.

and neither should we...

Rest in peace Madeline. You did your absolute best, and, one day, history will exalt you.

What on earth is there to debate about any of that? About "some people need to die"? Seriously?!

Everyone knows what that gif was about. But they will always leave just enough plausible deniability (“its Friday 13th” - yeah right). But we have to grey rock - every mention is just more narcissistic supply to them.

Perhaps MN mods can explain where they see compromise happening on the other side of the debate? Or is it just women that are supposed to be nice and compromise?

Sorry, I do insist on sex specific buidings

And yes, MNHQ IS very much afraid of being sued. A group on here afew years ago were being vile about able bodied people (deserve to die, fucking bastard able bodieds, etc), but it was all allowed to stand as they then threatened to sue MN for being disablist if they didn;t delete/ban anyone trying to stand up for themselves so the entire thread just went absolutely silent and they were allowed to continue to be vile as no one dared stand up to them.

They know appeasement doesn’t work right? Look what happened to Lloyd George. I teach my girls this in relation to playground spats.

HQ start work at 9, so expect this to be gone by 9:40, lots of us will be suspended / deleted too.

It's so so worth it though.

Buy misgendering isn't a crime. It has to be malicious communications or harassment I thought.

And since it's here on MN, where McKinnon isn't even a member, how can that apply? Furthermore, reacting with outrage to disgusting misogyny isn't malicious nor harassment. It's normal.

And commercially, the positive publicity for MN would be overwhelming. No-one would be anything other than supportive. McKinnon's behaviour towards women, lesbians, cancer victims, etc, is indefensible, bordering on unhinged.