Gender Dysphoria and Children: An Endocrinologist’s Evaluation of I am Jazz

[Lamahaha]

This is a very interesting article which evaluates, point for point, the book I am Jazz.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/04/21220/?fbclid=IwAR3rD5yqhydMeHdyaOxrXmx8c-rStXursNyZFRR0Hr6A-9C82fiP2VTev1g

There seems to have been a hell of a lot of gish-gallop on this thread since last visited, I'll clear up a few thoughts and then leave it I think.

I'd like to re-iterate I am gender-critical, transwomen are not the same as women.
But I consider the conspiracy theories and the quite obvious falsehoods disseminated by the GC cause as detrimental to itself, and if we really need to promote such gibberish to be GC then that is not a healthy place to be.

I think some people are getting a little het up over what are just 'opinions' I understand why some people have opinions on here that dont always line up with evidence, I understand why some people may try to over compensate for that, as seems to be the case on some of the replies at least.

OK so...

There is literally diagnostic criteria for trans kids, it is used worldwide, if you really have to believe kids are just indulged on a whim to prop up some other dubious belief, well I'm sorry but I can not bring myself to respect that opinion, and again let me re-iterate, these are just opinions, no matter how highly held by like-minded people.

The opinions on these instances is the counter and polar opposite to the vast majority of medical practice, that is not opinion that is evidenced, and also evidenced by the fact aforementioned diagnostic criteria exists, I think cherry-picking two or three experts making their name speaking out about trans people and pushing back is a bit iffy , whilst 99% of their peers support affirmative trans healthcare such as the 64,000 members of the American Association of Paediatrics, along with every significant medical fellowship.

Individuals may choose to advocate against best care practices, similar people are called flat-earthers or anti-vaxxers in other walks of life. They exist, best not to pay too much attention to them when much better supported opinions exist.

Mermaids is another case in point, despite various investigations pushed for by GC people and like what happened with Glinner, this is terrible optics, along with the NSPCC debacle.
The gender-critical cause is not viewed as protecting kids, it is being viewed as a malicious attempt to shutdown healthcare for children.
And when Mermaids was cleared, that was a massive blow for the Gender-critical optics and makes it look as though the transcult are right.
When I talk about conspiracy theories Mermaids is a good example, we have all kinds of wild claims about supposed harms, there is not a service user who has complained at all.

This should raise at least an eyebrow, but some of us are pushing for the eradication of mermaids, a registered charity for children that the actual families who use it cannot speak highly enough of.
We can pretend it's harming children, we can pretend they are all deluded, we can pretend Susie's kid Jacky is messed up.... but she clearly is not, and is YET another example of a trans kid thriving.

So of course every time we push a nonsensical conspiracy theory, and the evidence clearly refutes it, we look bad, and if we double down, we are done for...

To my mind this is the biggest problem we have when fighting back against the transcult, almost everything is debunked.

We can pretend they're not, and signal boost people who are not respected who push some of these debunked theories, and while it may make us feel better, in the grand scheme of things, they don't work, and they have never worked, it's time we woke up to that fact.

Individuals may choose to advocate against best care practices, similar people are called flat-earthers or anti-vaxxers in other walks of life. They exist, best not to pay too much attention to them when much better supported opinions exist.

Hilarious.

My kid has to have chemo, steroids and immunosuppressants.
Luckily, there is observable evidence of her condition, as maple taken via bone marrow aspiration, viewed through a microscope.

Does wanting similar, proveable evidence for ‘trans’ children before a GnRHa is prescribed make me an antivaxxer?

Like fuck it does,

Thanks oldcrone, this is exactly what I am talking about.

"The indulgence of a child's fantasy or delusion in the form of 'social transition' is seen as harmless and even helpful to the child. It is not."

There is now very clear evidence social transition is very helpful, and is harmless, the exact polar opposite of what you are trying to push.

thinkprogress.org/trans-kids-socially-transition-study-529f34c1bb3b/

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/875569

I dont think theres anything more to add, I expect a lot of doubling down, and I dont want this to descend into bickering and goady posts any more than I seem to have received in my absence from this thread. So I'm bailing out now, I dont see the point in repeating myself these tactics become tiresome and I must admit it is one I am struggling with from GC outputs.

Rose of Dawn bravely tackles the issue

Not an easy one for someone who is dysphoric and sensible. Conclusion seems to be watchful waiting till 16, and less of kids being used as pawns in a political debate. She emphasises research that suggests 90% of young children grow out of dysphoria around puberty. Hers, apparently got a lot worse. Rightly she does not conclude, unlike Susie/Jackie Green, that her individual experience should dictate policy.

To just point out again what I was saying earlier.

Rose's output amounts to no more than critisizing and abusing other trans people. Anyone who pays her a cursory glance can see that from any social media timeline.

It seems a little incredulous to, as an example, to ignore 64,000 childhood medical experts, and suggest people should pay attention to Rose, who only has a platform to denigrate the trans community.

People see these tactics, these tactics hold us back.

We have to do better than this I think.

Rose has an opinion, Rose is GC. It is one opinion, and a cheap one to put forward.
If you wish to use Roses authority as a trans woman, she is in the minority with most of her beliefs compared to the wider trans community. We cannot then say Rose is right, every other trans person is wrong.

So we come back to these outlier opinions that align us with anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers.

Mermaids is another case in point, despite various investigations pushed for by GC people and like what happened with Glinner, this is terrible optics, along with the NSPCC debacle.
The gender-critical cause is not viewed as protecting kids, it is being viewed as a malicious attempt to shutdown healthcare for children.
And when Mermaids was cleared, that was a massive blow for the Gender-critical optics and makes it look as though the transcult are right.

What investigation into mermaids?

There has been an extremely long investigation into Dr webberly, who mermaids recommend. She has been criminally convicted. She cannot practice in this country any longer. Likewise her husband.

If you're talking about the lottery funding, they are in no position to investigate anything! Neither did they say that. They just decided, after some thought, to continue funding.

And claiming that you are gender critical, when you advocate for the treatment of children based on zero evidence, other than your own observation of the children of trans lobbyists, is risible.

The fact that you cannot, and will not, address any of these points is noted.

It seems a little incredulous to, as an example, to ignore 64,000 childhood medical experts

Who are they, then?

Mermaids is another case in point, despite various investigations pushed for by GC people and like what happened with Glinner, this is terrible optics, along with the NSPCC debacle.
The gender-critical cause is not viewed as protecting kids, it is being viewed as a malicious attempt to shutdown healthcare for children.
And when Mermaids was cleared, that was a massive blow for the Gender-critical optics and makes it look as though the transcult are right

Gender critical. Nope. Don't think so,

she is in the minority with most of her beliefs compared to the wider trans community. We cannot then say Rose is right, every other trans person is wrong.

Who was saying that? Rose was careful to say that her experience is one experience, and that research suggests different. And that, obviously, we need to be very careful when children are involved.

Rose was not expecting everyone to agree with her, whether GC or trans. She is entitled to an opinion. I think her opinion is valuable because it is formed as a result of different experiences. I respect her enough to listen to her, but would not expect to agree to everything. Is that not what debate is about? In contract I find the #nodebate approach of many within the trans community depressing/frustrating. If there is no debate how can I test my own views.

In case anyone missed it, LisaVito first came on here a couple of weeks ago telling us all that she was gender critical and 'kinda new to this'. After a day or two she was accusing us of being flat earthers and conspiracy theorists and trying to 'educate' us, because within that time she had become the expert and it was clear to her that we didn't know what we were talking about.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3662726-Philosopher-responds-to-Jane-Clare-Jones-et-al?msgid=89250526

The 64,000 figure was explained on there. That is the entire membership of the American Academy of Pediatrics, who according to Lisa are all experts in childhood gender dysphoria.

yeah, I haven't heard much gender critical discussion coming from LisaVito and her posts sound suspiciously transactivisty.

Yeah totes everything the AAP says is gold... like this gem from fucking 04/26/2010... 64,000 professionals advocating FGM to basically placate men who want to see female genitals mutilated for their pleasure.

"American Association of Pediatrics, whose 2010 policy statement called for allowing pediatricians to perform nicking/pricking [42]. A firestorm of protest led to the subsequent retraction of this statement.*

AAP ENDORSED FGM and renamed it FGC (mutilation was just too strong you see so circumcision is a nicer way to say it). It took public outcry to get the AAP to retract said stance.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5840226/

www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/american-academy-of-pediatrics-aap-is-advocating-for-us-pediatricians-to-perform-certain-types-of-female-genital-mutilation-fgm-92871624.html

www.equalitynow.org/equality_now_calls_on_the_american_academy_of_pediatrics_to_retract_a_portion_of_their_policy_statement_endorsing_type_iv_female_genital_mutilation_of_female_minors?locale=en

Believing ANY authority blindly is fucking stupid as fuck.

LisaVito want to roll back our right to vote next? I mean the authorities thought women weren't capable of voting - you believe what they thought as well? How about authorities thought that rape in marriage wasn't criminal or rape, just sex? You on board with that too?!?!?

You are dangerous to our cause as you believe blindly primarily men who seek to continue to control female existence predicated on their "beliefs"/"feels". It is pretty hilarious to see you attempting to educate this board when you've been around a short time and obviously get your info from YouTube and Google.

So of course every time we push a nonsensical conspiracy theory, and the evidence clearly refutes it, we look bad, and if we double down, we are done for...

With respect, none of what you've been writing makes me think you've got a feminist analysis or a sound scientific understanding of this situation. Or even any sources.

So, I'm still gonna go with the Oxford Professor of Evidence Based Medicine and his assessment on this one.

outlier opinions that align us with anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers.

You mean, like the belief in a gendered soul?

The AAP also endorses male genital mutilation circumcision, despite the fact every other paediatric organisation or professional body around the world does not. The discussion has gone something like this:

Gender Affirming Endocrinologists: We know what we’re doing with these kids.

Professional Medical Bodies Around the World: Ok, we’ll leave you to it.

[some time goes by....]

Gender Critical People: This can’t be right, surely?

Doctors asked to analyse evidence: There is no evidence to support this practice.

Mainstream Media: There are concerns.

Majority of Doctors: WTF? We didn’t actually ever stop and think what was happening. What do the endocrinologists have to say about this lack of evidence?

Gender Affirming Endocrinologists: [tumbleweed]

Left wing Media: It’s a right wing attack on trans people!

Gender Affirming Endocrinologists: [more tumbleweeds]

Majority of Doctors: is someone going to say something? I don’t want to be seen as a bigot...

Small vocal group of doctors: Hey Gender Affirming Endocrinologists, hey various professional bodies around the world, there is a serious lack of evidence for puberty blockers, what’s going on? What are you going to do about it?

Gender Affirming Endocrinologists: We’ve published our guidelines...

Small vocal group of Doctors: But they aren’t based on evidence....

Left wing Media: Transphobes!

RCPCH (UK): We will look into it.
RACP (Aus): We might look into it, we’re not sure yet.
AAP (USA): [tumbleweed]

And that’s where we are up to.

Bold fail. Sigh...

That is exactly it NotBadConsidering and that's where we are now. Great post.

Excellent bonding and excellent post NotBadConsidering That sums it up pretty neatly.

Whoops. Excellent bolding I meant. Autocorrect fail.

Perfectly summed up notbad

Hey Lisa, how can Jazz be "thriving"? If, by your logic, she considers herself mentally healthy, then she has a serious physical illness. Otherwise, she would not need drastic surgeries and drastic, life-shortening medications like cross-sex hormones. Giving lifelong doses of estrogen to male bodies is known to hurt them. This child is in for a lifetime of chronic pain--she's probably in pain already. That's not thriving.

Lisavito = wolf in sheep's clothing.

Jazz is off to Harvard.

My concern is not about now, when she has her family's full attention and is the poster child for transgenderism, but what happens when the music stops. She could have a long time for regrets.

Good summing up NotBadConsidering

There is no reason to be complacent about medical practice and it's important to know that the U.S. is not always the gold standard people might expect. Look at the opioid crisis; the less than great maternal mortality rate (significantly worse than most European countries (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_maternal_mortality_rate) and the concerns about lupron, used to delay puberty which has a particularly negative affect on girls/women.
khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/
I've tried to read as much as I can about the issue, and the recurring thing from both sides of treatment recommendations (affirmation or wait and see) is that there isn't enough research. Some of the research has been suppressed because it is considered transphobic to research anything other than affirmation.
Anyone who has worked with young people knows that issues can arrive in waves. Anorexia, self-harming and even religious fervour can sweep through a year group. Obviously not everyone who is experiencing gender issues is influenced by others, but anecdotally (and the one study that I know to have been done on this) suggests that some are. So how much are we willing to accept that some young people will be rendered infertile and unable to experience sexual pleasure because to consider other possibilities of treatment is consider bigoted? I'm not sure how someone can self-identify as GC without at least questioning this rather than taking a 'thems the rules' approach.

"I've tried to read as much as I can about the issue, and the recurring thing from both sides of treatment recommendations (affirmation or wait and see) is that there isn't enough research. Some of the research has been suppressed because it is considered transphobic to research anything other than affirmation."

This is pure fantasy, even half-baked research like Lisa Litman was championed and shared before it was thoroughly debunked, which the university has made a very strong statement about in the past week.

I think at this point suggesting anything transphobic has been suppressed is wishful thinking.

" because to consider other possibilities of treatment is consider bigoted? I'm not sure how someone can self-identify as GC without at least questioning this rather than taking a 'thems the rules' approach."

Other treatments have been considered, other treatments have been used, the current best practice is the practice that has shown to be the best. It's very simple.