Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Dysphoria and Children: An Endocrinologist’s Evaluation of I am Jazz

201 replies

Lamahaha · 25/08/2019 10:18

This is a very interesting article which evaluates, point for point, the book I am Jazz.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/04/21220/?fbclid=IwAR3rD5yqhydMeHdyaOxrXmx8c-rStXursNyZFRR0Hr6A-9C82fiP2VTev1g

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 25/08/2019 22:36

There is very little data in recent years on trans kids, and methods and diagnostic criteria have improved

So little data and yet diagnostics have improved - how could diagnostics improve without studies to have based a diagnostic method on?

This is all very interesting Lisa but nothing in your posts suggest to me that you no more than the endocrinologist referenced in the OP. He seems to care about protecting kids from being sold these lies** too which is handy given the lowly outcome for Jazz and kids like Jazz.

Anything based on nothing but a guess, albeit an informed one, just sounds like an experiment to me.

OldCrone · 25/08/2019 22:37

I would have to disagree with that interpretation old crone.

What interpretation? I've posted quite a lot on this thread. Can you be more specific?

As I said I believe, as do the medical establishment, that the number of trans kids who went onto receive blockers or hormones were the ones most likely to persist, after all checks and balances.

Evidence? Belief is for religion. Did you read the research paper I linked to? And what are these checks and balances?

You refer to the older studies I think when you say 80% desist, what the latest data tells us is that our understanding is growing.

Where is this 'latest data'? Can you post some links? And since Jazz was "diagnosed" 13 years ago, does Jazz's experience fall into the period of the 'older studies'? The paper I linked to was published in 2008 and some of the children who were included in it were referred to the gender clinic in 2005.

LangCleg · 25/08/2019 22:37

Well. I wish I hadn't read this thread. And I'll leave it at that.

LisaVito · 25/08/2019 22:38

I'm just saying if you listen to Jazz herself, whose opinion is the most pertinent, she is happy and satisfied with the outcomes, despite Laidlaw predicting otherwise.

Thats it, it's as simple as it is.

Iminthewrongstory · 25/08/2019 22:44

There was a TV camera on her when she saw her new vagina.
www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a23828566/jazz-jennings-gender-confirmation-surgery-complication/

FFS.

OldCrone · 25/08/2019 22:44

There is very little data in recent years on trans kids, and methods and diagnostic criteria have improved

I somehow missed this bit of your post Lisa. This sentence appears to contradict both itself and the following sentence:

You refer to the older studies I think when you say 80% desist, what the latest data tells us is that our understanding is growing.

How are methods and diagnostic criteria improving if there is very little data? How can the latest data tell us that our understanding is growing if there is 'very little data'?

Iminthewrongstory · 25/08/2019 22:46

It seems wrong with wrong sauce, but time will tell.

NotBadConsidering · 25/08/2019 22:47

What were the purported outcomes of the surgery? If the surgery was experimental and Jazz’s surgeon says it went well, then Jazz is likely to be satisfied. But what does that mean? Is Jazz aware of any other possible outcomes to compare to?

Do you think a highly edited tv show will show any concerns? On the Lifestyle Channel? It’s not exactly hard hitting...

titchy · 25/08/2019 23:04

she is happy and satisfied with the outcomes,

Jazz is 18, with the emotional capacity of a younger teen (due to the blockers). I can virtually guarantee when Jazz is 28 they will be bitterly unhappy with the decisions made for her.

It's like feeding a kid Maccies for tea every night. Are they happy - course they are - bloody delighted! Will this course of action lead to a happy future - of course not. But it's not until you grow up and become aware of the consequences of being given what you purported to want that you realise a life lived for the here and now can be devastating for all the future here and nows.

OhHolyJesus · 25/08/2019 23:04

Lisa I have listened to Jazz and Jazz appears to me to be quite immature for Jazz's age, and as puberty blockers not only affected Jazz's penis developing into an adult size to give the surgeon "more material" to work with, Jazz's IQ levels have also been affected as that is what puberty blockers do. They restrict normal development in puberty and human brains do not mature until 25. Call it old science (what like gravity?), call it outdated, but these are the things we know based on actual medical studies that call out all this 'born in the wrong bodies' ideology. There wouldn't be an investigation into puberty blockers in the UK if they drugs were not dangerous in what they do and how seemingly easily they are prescribed.

Jazz will never mature fully as Jazz has not developed normally. This is why the Dr in the OP article stated that he thought that the book was dangerous^^ as so much wasn't accurate or was omitted.

I hope Jazz is truly happy (not just because everyone is telling Jazz that Jazz should be happy) but why someone would sign their child up for this horror is beyond me. The Reality TV contracts in the US must be really lucrative.

spinninghag · 25/08/2019 23:25

Carl Henegan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University:

An Archive of Diseases in Childhood letter referred to GnRHa treatment as a momentous step in the dark. It set out three main concerns: 1) young people are left in a state of ‘developmental limbo’ without secondary sexual characteristics that might consolidate gender identity; 2) use is likely to threaten the maturation of the adolescent mind, and 3) puberty blockers are being used in the context of profound scientific ignorance.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research, and treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms and even death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children.

blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

From the GIDS website - England's only NHS service for gender dysphoric children - in their own words about how they have assessed the evidence:

Does a child's gender remain the same after a certain age or might it change as they get older?

There is evidence that many transgender children experience incongruence between their experienced and their assigned gender early in life (Steensma et al, 2013). At GIDS, about 15-25% of our referrals are for children aged under 12. Often these children do not identify with stereotypical behaviours and preferences of their assigned gender peers, and sometimes strongly dislike their physical sex characteristics.

In the majority of cases these feelings seem to discontinue either before, or early in, puberty (Steensma et al, 2013). In some children, however, gender dysphoric feelings will intensify during adolescence expressed by an aversion of their bodies in the context of secondary sex characteristics developing.

Across all studies approximately 16% continue with their gender identification (Steensma et al, 2013). The way gender identity develops and how gender identification is expressed seems to be influenced by biological, environmental and psychological factors (De Cuypere et al., 2013; de Vries et. al., 2014; Steensma & Cohen-Kettenis 2015).

Young people indicated that the period from 10 and 13 years to be most crucial in their feelings related to gender dysphoria. For those who continued to have feelings related to gender dysphoria, gender identity remained stable. Three main factors seem to have had a prominent impact on gender identity for those who continued to have these feelings and for those whose feelings of gender dysphoria became less prominent. Firstly, the changes in social environment (gender roles and expectations become more distinct during this period of their life); secondly, the effects of a changing body through puberty; and thirdly the experience of romantic feelings and falling in love (Steensma et al, 2011). For those who continued to experience. [sic]

The majority of our referrals at GIDS are adolescents who first presented with gender dysphoria or cross-gender identification at, or after, the onset of puberty. Traditionally, evidence has suggested that those who present to the service after puberty are more likely to continue to request service input for their gender in the long term (Steensma et. al., 2013; GIDS Audit: Retrospective Look at Cases Closed at GIDS, presented at WPATH 2016). However, we see a more diverse profile of young people presenting after puberty (e.g. Kaltiala-Heino et al, 2015), so it is unknown whether this is still the case.

Gender questioning children who do not continue with a cross-gender identification may be more likely to later identify as gay or lesbian than non-gender-questioning children (Drescher, 2013; Wallien & Cohen Kettenis, 2008).
gids.nhs.uk/continuing-and-not-continuing-studies

Social transition age

However, quantitative and qualitative follow-up studies by Steensma et al (2011; 2013) present evidence to strongly suggest that early social transition does not necessarily equate to an adult transgender identity. The qualitative study reports on two girls who had transitioned when they were in elementary school and struggled with the desire to return to their original gender role. Fear of teasing and feeling ashamed resulted in a prolonged period of stress. One girl even struggled to go back to her previous gender role for two years.

As such, in our approach, we would encourage exploration of gender roles in this younger cohort, with a view to keeping options open and not having any pre-conceived ideas as the longer term outcome.
gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

DuMondeB · 25/08/2019 23:43

I'm not sure if people are advocating for trans woman to have surgery or to not have surgery

It doesn’t really matter to us because a trans identifying male is still male, with or without penile inversion surgery.

It does matter to those having the surgery, some of whom seem very vulnerable and some who end up with disastrous results. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

This poor person was so unhappy with the post surgical result, they tried to burn down the hospital:

nationalpost.com/news/canada/woman-arrested-in-arson-attempt-on-montreal-clinic-thats-canadas-only-place-for-gender-reassignment-surgery

bettybeans · 26/08/2019 00:23

I don't listen to Jazz and hear a happy and confident youngster. I hear someone who is saying exactly what they think they're meant to say. It's frightening. Jazz has been irreversibly changed and is still too young to understand the magnitude or the consequences of those changes.

Jazz will be a patient for life. The effects of the treatments are yet to be seen, and many effects won't be shared fo protect the brand. Because that's what Jazz is now - a brand. I don't see that as a success.

2BthatUnnoticed · 26/08/2019 02:54

There are TW who are male-attracted, and are in happy, settled relationships with men. However, they tend to be against children transitioning, and are happy they waited until adulthood.

The people encouraging child affirmation seem to be either late transitioning males or mums who affirmed their own child’s transition.

Lamahaha · 26/08/2019 06:34

I have to thank Lisa for actiing as devil's advocate on this thread.
Lurkers will decide for themselves.
I myself read the entire thread on Jazz in Kiwi Farms recently. There's a disaster waiting in the wings here is my opinion. People are given a dusted off, polished result on TV because it suits the agenda.
The truth is likely to be very far from what is shown.

OP posts:
frankexchangeofviews · 26/08/2019 07:58

Lisa - April Ashley underwent surgery as an adult (in her late 20s). This thread is about hormone treatment for pubescent and pre pubescent children and surgical treatment on adolescents.

Datun · 26/08/2019 08:37

Devils advocacy is normally more effective if not littered with words like assume, guess, hopefully and belief.

Just a reminder that there have been investigations into the Tavistock, along with significant numbers of whistle blowers criticising its methods.

Michael Biggs report concludes

In fact, the initial results showed predominantly negative outcomes. The only tabulated data available, for 30 of the subjects after a year on triptorelin, showed that children reported greater self-harm; girls experienced more behavioural and emotional problems and expressed greater dissatisfaction with their body—so drugs exacerbate gender dysphoria using GIDS own findings.*

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

Andrew Gilligan reports that clinicians are making decisions that will have a major impact on children and young people’s bodies and lives . . . without a robust evidence base”.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/children-misled-at-gender-clinic-ccdpghgx5

There is significant evidence of the short term negative health effects of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery.

The long term effects are unknown because children like Jazz are an experiment. These children are guinea pigs.

Jazz has no libido, will have to dilate for life (currently jazz's mum helps), is infertile, has had their mental growth stunted at prepubescent and is a lifelong medical patient. Jazz suffers from depression and eating disorders. And their entire existence is a reality TV show.

If this is your benchmark for success, god help you.

GIDS have been delaying the publication of their long awaited study into treating children with gender dysphoria. Making interim, contradictory statements which doesn't inspire confidence.

They will be under the microscope and everything they say will be examined forensically.

It can't come soon enough.

Lamahaha · 26/08/2019 08:43

When the bubble bursts as it must the fallout will be terrible.
My heart breaks for the kids whose furures have been destroyed.
Mutiliating healthy bodies whether chemically or surgically can never ever have a good outcome. We are not smarter than nature.

OP posts:
Lamahaha · 26/08/2019 08:44

furures=futures. Of course.

OP posts:
joyfullittlehippo · 26/08/2019 09:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 26/08/2019 10:11

If you want a private life it’s a good idea not to make a reality TV programme about your private life.

Not disagreeing with this exactly because all that is said on this thread is a matter of public record, but that publicity was never Jazz's choice. Jazz has been paraded, first on the internet then on TV since Jazz was a small child. It is Jazz's parents who have made the choice to turn their child's life into public property for profit.

Jazz is now 18. Does Jazz now get the money that Jazz makes? Is Jazz, with Jazz's profound immaturity, even aware that the money should be Jazz's, nor Mr and Mrs 'Jennings'?

Even if Jazz comes to terms with the medical experimentation that Jazz's parents forced on Jazz before Jazz was old enough to consent, many child celebrities end up with dysfunctional adult lives. It will be very hard for Jazz regardless of Jazz's long term feelings on what was done to Jazz in terms of artificial hormones and mutilative surgeries.

LisaVito · 26/08/2019 15:25

With all due respect Datun, the Tavistock is insignificant in worldwide orgs settling on best practices.

When we listen to the transphobic media using ex-employers of the tavistock, it is very evident these practioners have been ignoring best practices evolved over a number of years.

We hear these practioners claim these kids will not have Gender Dysphoria in adulthood.

The world around us, social, media, youtub, the news, has countless evidence of young adults still suffering the same gender dyshoria they experienced as children, and thriving.

You are comparing Jazz with a non-trans person, trans people dont have the luxury of existing like cis people, there are trade offs.

I understand these are unconscionable to many people, but thats is the burden of being trans for some people, not all need to have surgery, but some do. There are obvious trade offs for this.
Trans people are overwhelmingly happier post transition than pre-transition.

There seems to be an agenda to somehow make Jazz seem representative of trans kids, which is false, and to frame her treatment as a disaster, also false.

There are a great many trans kids thriving throughout the world.
And who will happily credit that brutal surgery and trade-offs for overall happiness.Some people may choose to frame this differently for motivations I dont understand.

I think it's disingenuous to start inventing notions of how Jazz may feel later.

Here is another trans kid, who is happy post-treatment.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 26/08/2019 15:40

One of the many things I distrust about the trans movement is that they have pushed through laws that ensure that grown adult men do not need surgery or medicine to 'change sex'. Adult men do not need surgery or medicine to live a full and happy life as the opposite sex.

Children on the other hand...

DuMondeB · 26/08/2019 21:25

The world around us, social, media, youtub, the news, has countless evidence of young adults still suffering the same gender dyshoria they experienced as children

Treatment didn’t work then, huh?

Tavistock might be ‘insignificant in worldwide orgs’ but it’s not insignificant to parents in the U.K.

And you are posting on a U.K. parenting forum.

Datun · 26/08/2019 21:39

LisaVito

You acknowledge that gender clinics have been ignoring what you call best practice. But you have no evidence as to what constitutes best practice. No one does.

I prefer to rely on evidence as a result of the conclusion from the 11 year study. Not YouTube, or a reality tv show.

So I will await the published results. The interim results are fairly negative.

Can I suggest, with respect, that you don't rely on YouTube videos for your information.