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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Manchester pride usual 8 plus 3 extra

490 replies

Bespin · 24/08/2019 17:36

Looks like the usual people turned up for a photo op at Manchester pride, though to be fare there were 11 not 8 as usual.

Carry on protesting because its a good reminder of the actual numbers if that is all the people that can protest the second biggest pride in the UK.

Manchester pride usual 8 plus 3 extra
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12
ChattyLion · 25/08/2019 07:27

That Twitter thread with @Charlie_Sci is really moving. Massive respect to her bravery both for demonstrating, and for being really public about how she’s detransitioned and the thought process she has been through to get to that point.
She points out from painful first-hand experience that the whole genderist dogma is about massively reinforcing the whole nasty misogynistic bullshit that is the gender binary.

Agrona · 25/08/2019 07:28

Spinster is a social media platform, like Twitter, but it is woman centred. Try typing in Spinster xyz.

Here is a link to a discussion about it: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3663641-Spinster-xyz

beatriceprior · 25/08/2019 07:36

Thank you I will try that

SophoclesTheFox · 25/08/2019 07:50

I'm happy to discuss my thread with mumsnet and if they find it's in breach I'm sure they will remove it.

Just returning to this from last night as I want to break down for bespin how the board actually works, as I think maybe you’ve misunderstood.

MN only remove stuff that is brought to their attention by users reporting (particularly over the weekend, where the modding is a little more...patchy).

The users on the feminist board generally don’t report your posts, bespin, not because we think they’re ok, but for the exact opposite reason. We don’t report them because:

a) we genuinely want the debate to happen and we’re not into this cancel culture where you have to block and get deleted people you disagree with.
b) getting posts deleted allows people to then make up stuff about what the posts said, and why they were deleted
c) your posts are excellent at displaying exactly why women have a problem with trans activism. You mock women’s concerns, you can’t engage constructively with the debates, and you brag about how frequently you report people, which it seems likely also includes women fleeing domestic abuse who you think aren’t respectful enough.

No one will report this thread, so it won’t get removed. You will believe that’s because you are adhering to the rules, and bringing balanced debate to the table. I thought you needed to know that you’re wrong. The thread will likely stay because it illustrates how little you think of women. Honestly, I’m amazed that you can’t see it, but there we go.

Have an amazing bank holiday Grin

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 25/08/2019 08:31

It's a brilliant thread.

SophoclesTheFox · 25/08/2019 08:37

It is, captain

Hats off again to the sheroes, particularly to Charlie. What a courageous woman.

testing987654321 · 25/08/2019 08:46

Thanks to this thread for sharing the Charlie tweets.

These stories are so powerful because they are so obviously telling the truth. There is no doublethink, no magical thinking needed, just a simple explanation of why a trans identity is so appealing to so many young women. And why it ultimately fails.

bd67th · 25/08/2019 08:51

would you respect other woman's right to self define there own sexuality?

No, of course not! Would you respect a person's right to define their own age/race/nationality?

Exactly this. I see "I'm a lesbian, but I sometimes have sex with males and won't rule that out as a future option[1]" as evidence of closeted bisexuality. It's OK to be bi and we need more bi women's visibility and pride. It's not OK to use the word "lesbian" to shield yourself from the "slut"/"threesome"/etc stereotypes that sexually entitled men have created for bi women. Lesbians are not our shield against shitty men.

[1] I'm well aware that compulsory heterosexuality means that many lesbians have had male partners in the past, that doesn't make them not lesbian as long as they've decided they are not going to date men again.

Sexnotgender · 25/08/2019 08:58

You can be whatever you want sexually. You can sleep with whoever you want. You can exclude whoever you want from your dating pool for whatever reason you wish. You cannot however change the meaning of words.
A lesbian is a female homosexual. That is a female who exclusively has relationships with other females.

SunsetBeetch · 25/08/2019 08:59

Candidpeel

twitter.com/charlie_sci/status/1165369008801091589?s=19

From one of the Manchester protesters

"I have a retraction to make. Last year I tweeted this in response to #GetTheLOut in London. Today, I walked with them at Manchester Pride. I know you are angry at us for being 'TERFs', but I wasn't there with hate in my heart. Please listen to us, just for a minute. 1/ ...."

Really moving. Charlie is very brave.

Sexnotgender · 25/08/2019 09:01

Can I liken it to vegetarians who eat fish and call themselves vegetarians?

No, you’re a pescatarian.

Words have meanings.

SunsetBeetch · 25/08/2019 09:25

Twitter showing its bias here.

Manchester pride usual 8 plus 3 extra
TirisfalPumpkin · 25/08/2019 09:28

bd67th - exactly this, words have meanings.

Jo Bartosch did a good piece on bisexuality a while back which I'd really recommend for anyone interested - medium.com/@josephinebartosch/bisexual-or-bust-f94884bbce54

In her case she gets 'read' as lesbian, but being capable of being attracted to both sexes, remains bi - whatever her long-term relationship intentions. She says "Hypothetically, if I were single I would not date a man again, but neither would I call myself a lesbian." - which I found very relatable. I will always be bi, no matter how many people try to convince me that my orientation is either a gender-esque headfeeling (thanks radfem twitter) or to do with other people's feelings (cheers genderists).

I wish bis were louder about asserting our existence, minus the stupid pinky purple flag and 'more than one gender

NotBadConsidering · 25/08/2019 09:36

SophoclesTheFox

👏

Yes, a million times over. I never report. This is sometimes seen by certain posters that their posts are beyond such contempt. But I agree, it’s better to let everyone see.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/08/2019 09:41

'A protest against transgender rights'?
What 'transgender rights' were these women protesting against, exactly?Hmm

Tyrotoxicity · 25/08/2019 09:45

Can I just throw a thank you at whoever mentioned the upcoming Leeds event?

Because that's pretty close to me, actually; according to google I can afford the train; and the usual babysitter's free that day.

TinselAngel · 25/08/2019 09:46

What 'transgender rights' were these women protesting against, exactly?

Ooh I know this one! It's their right to sleep with Lesbians.

TruthOnTrial · 25/08/2019 09:51

Yes, my question exactly, what trans rights?

Such massive bias and fear

bd67th · 25/08/2019 10:14

Tirisfal thanks for that article, it puts into words something that I've struggled to articulate for a long time. YY to the idea that it's about attraction as well as intentions re the future. If I stopped being attracted to men, I might become lesbian, but as long as I think some men are hot, I'm not, no matter how much I refuse to date them for safety or political reasons.

PennysPocket · 25/08/2019 10:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MouthyHarpy · 25/08/2019 12:00

If I stopped being attracted to men, I might become lesbian, but as long as I think some men are hot, I'm not, no matter how much I refuse to date them for safety or political reasons

Yes, this.

I sometimes wish I could be attracted to women in the way I'm attracted to men, but I just can't.

Michelleoftheresistance · 25/08/2019 12:44

the lesbians who I know who have slept with trans woman. why don't They have the right to define there sexuality?

And disingenuously you paint it again as a 'live and let live' issue.

Lesbians (actual ones) didn't start this.

As a lesbian, I saw people 'choosing' labels to call themselves that weren't actually true and thought 'you're kidding yourself, but whatever. If you want to pretend and it makes you happy crack on'.

So far we're on the same page.

And then we got to the cotton ceiling. Bloody workshops being held on how to coerce homo sexual women into sex they didn't want with males just because those males wanted to be women and wanted the validation of a sex partner exclusively attracted to females. And the selfishness and the utter disregard for others and the sexual violence implicit there shocked the living fuck out of me.

And then I saw that 'lesbian' was becoming a dangerous word, including death threats, rape threats, etc because it implies you say no to men who want to be women.

I saw women who argued that no, they didn't want to be harassed for sex by males (still male however they identify), to have to repeatedly justify against cries of bigot and anger that they were not sexually attracted to male bodies, I started to see the articles and the videos about how I needed to get over my 'vagina fetish' in order to not say no to men who want to be women. And I saw pure conversion therapy, suggestions of corrective rape as solutions and blatant homophobia that is nothing more than a new, dressed up way for men to force lesbian women to say yes to sex with them with a veneer of 'right being on their side'. We live in sick times.

Now you repeatedly say that you don't agree with women being harassed for sex, cotton ceiling all the rest of it. But every post you make props up exactly that agenda. It facilitates and furthers that anti woman, homophobic agenda. You are actually fine with that agenda so long as it's not in plain sight, and your main goal in your endless niggling here is to moan about and harass women for saying no to men and get in line. And you know it.

By your logic, if the American Army had all identified as Native Americans when they began to ethnically cleanse the American West what they did and how they did it would have been perfectly moral and understandable. How could anyone police what they were allowed to name themselves as (if they liked the identity)? And how nasty and rotten of the people driven out of their spaces and having their language banned and being oppressed to say no. To people just wanting to live their lives and be happy shitting all over them .

SophoclesTheFox · 25/08/2019 13:19

Well said, michelle.

DJLippy · 25/08/2019 13:25

A few words from one of those women present at manc pride. Mumsnets very own DJ lippy. The reception went suprisingly well. There were a few shouts of TERF but lots of cheers as well. Overheard

"Get lesbians out of pride! You are not part of our community and never were" By an angry bear. He later tried to add a caveat "political lesbians" but his tounge had slipped and he had said what he really meant.

"Queer means gay and gay means everyone!" Errr.....

We did see a little girl enthusiasticly repeating our slogan "lesbians do not have a penis." But maybe she was jut glad to be allowed to say the word penis.

One woman asked us what we were chanting and when I said lesbians don't have penises she looked at me like I was off my head. Oh my sweet summer child...

There was an old guy with a great beard whipping up some kids to say terfs out of pride.

There were lots of cheers from lesbians and overall the people shouting abuse were given a bit of a wide bearth. Lots of lesbians refused to meet our eyes like they knew we were right but they could not get involved in the fight.

MagneticSingularity · 25/08/2019 13:35

If posters want to gloat in mean-spirited posts, then, of course, they should be allowed to and their mean-spirited, gloating posts should definitely be allowed to stand. It tells me exactly what kind of person they are and I can interact/not interact with them accordingly from an informed position. I much prefer that to falling into disingenuous word-traps set by those who visit here and choose to hide their agenda.

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