Isn't Helen Webberley still prevented from providing services in UK?

[LoveGrowsWhere]

Because she's being quoted as an expert in this article.
inews.co.uk/news/puberty-blockers-transgender-rights-nhs-gender-clinic-uk-tavistock/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

NHS cardiologists who are doing private consultations on the weekend that aren't motivated by profit so, I don't think the W's are unique here.

Those cardiologists would not be continuing to practice after GMC suspension though. That is the unique point.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/11/transgender-nhs-doctor-prescribing-sex-hormones-children-uk

Psychologists, psychiatrists and surgeons don’t avoid employment at GICS due to ‘GPs not liking transpeople’ but because of a variety of professional reasons, including a handful of angry service users. Check out the whatdotheyknow website for FOI’s including the words ‘transgender’ or ‘gender reassignment’ for some alarming examples.

Look at the way transactivists have behaved towards Zucker, Blanchard, Cantor and Reid. The ‘politics’ is coming from inside the genderhouse

Ignore double negative.

With all the emotion involved in all this, it just highlights the importance of evidence based medicine and informed consent...

Even with known medical scandals, there would always be a large cohort of happy patients who were happy with their breast implants/vaginal mesh/surgeon who cauterised his name on their liver etc etc...

It’s only through ongoing clinical audit, rigorous research and accurate case follow up (plus sadly sometimes the need for courageous whistle blowing) that the truth comes to light.

I can’t see how informed consent can be given when patients are children and the information isn’t there.

I meant Webberley not Waverley

I suppose whether or not they have actually continued to work whilst suspended will come out when their case is heard. It's not really about the UK stopping people from accessing medical treatment abroad. it's about keeping patients safe and ensuring that Doctors work within their regulators guidelines. Regulation is all about keeping patients safe and HW has been convicted of illegally providing healthcare services so she was clearly not acting in the best interests of her patients.

Quentin

My feeling that the UK is still a mildly socially conservative society comes mainly from my experiences. I'm gay and I'm trans. Same sex public displays of affection even such as holding hands are still something that risk running the gauntlet of those who can't hide their bigotry in public. San Francisco is socially progressive, certain areas of our large cities are socially progressive, in my opinion the UK as a whole certainly isn't. It's just my experience though, perhaps yours is different?

As for the second question. You are right it is a tiny minority that present with symptoms of GD in childhood. Many that do, hide it well away knowing that to bring it into the open is going to cause all sorts of problems. Perhaps even worse than the ones that are already causing you so much distress. A minority do speak up, over the last 5 years GIDS figures suggest they had just short of 9000 referrals. That is an increase, particularly among girls which is interesting (although the rate of increase did start to slow again in 2016-17). That said 9000 referrals is a tiny proportion of the children under 18 in the UK(circa 12.5 million). In 2017 the DM did an expose to report that 800 had been prescribed blockers. Is that 800 of 9000, i don't know really, actual figures are hard to come by but, if so it would suggest just under 10 per cent of those referred go on to be treated suggesting a high desistence rate/ not diagnosed rate during the evaluation phase. From that I would suspect those that do eventually go on to blockers are those that present with the most persistent symptoms during the evaluation phase. Currently the most common age range for referral is 13 - 16. The wait to see a clinician currently stands at around 27 months so I suspect most 14 year olds and above will never see GIDS and instead be referred on for a further three or more year wait with adult services. Of those that are treated though there are likely to be a a very small number of that group that go on to de transtion. Those cases should provide valuable evidence for them to improve both evaluation and subsequent care. I know that is no recompense for the false positive but, if we were to pretend that trans health care is the only field that suffers from a minority of false positives then we wouldn't be being honest. What I can't bring myself to do is advocate withdrawing treatment from a very small number of 18's based on the experiences of a very small number of that particular group within a group. To do nothing as far as those who are suffering are concerned really isn't a neutral act. That said, it is now the subject of judicial review so whatever we think is likely not to matter.

Proper diagnostic tests rather than informed consent is the best way to avoid mistakes.

But that’s ‘gatekeeping’.

PaleBlue

As far as I am aware you can not access state funded gender surgery in the UK without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

As for treatment of last resort, in the main it is. But, many years of trying different treatments from electric shocks to counselling patients out of it did not seem to work in the main. At some stage they arrived at a point where aligning the body as best as they could with the mind is what seemed to work best for the majority of the patient cohort. But, you are right to say that surgery is just one option, I am led to believe that some don't need it to reduce the dysphoria although i personally haven't yet met a TS who has not had or doesn't desperately want surgery.

As for the surgery itself, it isn't without risk but it isn't high risk in the grand scheme of surgeries. I'll speak candidly seeing as you can't see me and say that after care (I can only speak for M to F) is mainly limited to keeping yourself clean and dilation which reduces with time particularly after the first twelve weeks but will always be required unless you are lucky enough to be engaging in regular sex. As for risk of complications they are there however, to think that the person considering surgery would be a normal healthy adult without it is not correct. Further to that, developments with techniques of surgery will always take into account previous problems to drive improvement.

DuLANG

Gate keeping is a method i am familiar with and see no great problem with it although, I am aware that I say that from the position of only having had to wait around six months to see a specialist. If I'd had to wait three or four years my opinions may differ. What diagnostic testing would you like to see? In the current absence of a genetic marker or particular blood profile that stance if it were medically accepted could lead to no treatment. It's okay to want that to be the position but, I'm not sure it would be ethical.

Why wouldn’t it be ethical? If it’s a sexual health condition and not a mental health condition we should be working towards defining it.

People keep telling us about brain scans - why not pursue that avenue?

You are right that it cannot be accessed without gender dysphoria, but there are moves (with some success) to say variously that gender dysphoria is not a disorder, that gender dysphoria should not require distress and/or that gender dysphoria should not be a prerequisite to access to hormones and treatment.

I am slightly concerned that you are minimising the effects of hormone treatments, which appear to have many number of side effects. Also, the mere fact of having to remain on hormones if this treatment is used creates a dependency on healthcare which curtails individual freedom (I vaguely remember from ages ago someone who wanted to travel the world, but couldn’t because they couldn’t be sure to access the ongoing treatment they needed.

You may be right that transsexuals generally all want medical intervention (by the nature of that condition) but the point is that there are many people who suffer from gender dysphoria who are not transsexuals.

Trying to make it go away is a common theme in a mildly socially conservative society like the UK

IMO social conservatism is more likely to be found within the trans community & medical practitioners.

The assessment criteria for 'gender dysphoria' children and/or for assessing if an adult has been living in the 'social sex role' of the opposite sex are largely based on sexist stereotypes.

DuLANG

Gender Dysphoria is already defined. Of course if you have a greater insight than those who have already defined it I'm sure they'll be thrilled to hear from you. I'm not the person you need to asking to pursue a different avenue to the current pathway. I was just a patient who for what its worth definitely believes that there is a mental health element to it. That said, I'd be more than pleased if they found a particular DNA sequence somewhere common to trans people that coded for a higher chance of developing GD. I'm not sure that some others would fare so well from that particular discovery though.

Here I am using transsexual to mean someone who wants to be the opposite sex, not just the opposite gender. Plus wanting to be the opposite sex might be something you stop wanting to be eg following therapy or social transition.

You may be right that transsexuals generally all want medical intervention (by the nature of that condition) but the point is that there are many people who suffer from gender dysphoria who are not transsexuals.

I have wondered what role publicity & licencing of 'sex-change' operations & the characterisation of a complex range of needs & distresses as 'gender dysphoria' has had on generating the demand for sugery/medical intervention.

Dysphoria is being replaced with ‘gender incongruence’, so the definition and diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria is soon fo be obsolete.

I am just a person with an adolescent daughter who has been groomed into thinking she’s a boy.
If there were an objective test for transsexualism the grooming issue would fall away.

It’s the grooming that the public will not stand for.

Rowantrees

They are but, the assessment criteria aren't dictated by the patients therefore, not so much now, but in days gone by patients may have presented to the clinician in a fashion that may be described as a bit more binary than they normally would.

That said there are plenty cross dressers and transvestites around who in the main seek no medical treatment who have been known to dress a bit outrageously. These could be useful if there was a need to muddy the waters or to further a particular opinion such as all transsexual people wear overly feminised clothing etc...

Personally I think social conservatism is more likely found in the conservative shires. That said, even they have been known to present a bit of a front.

DuLANG

I wish you luck with your child, being trans is not the easy route. There is no room for grooming taking over medical diagnosis, I agree with you on that. Statistically, even with symptoms it is very unlikely that they will be diagnosed but, that is something you as a family will have to work through if it happens. Good luck to you.

"Trans and gay" hurts my head. I'm assuming you mean a trans woman in a relationship with another woman? And you get abuse for holding your female partners hand from a minority of people?

That's awful and shouldn't be happening. However I don't believe there is anywhere in the world you could reliably avoid it, and in many less progressive countries than ours you would get state sponsored actions to prevent that happening.

I agree with you that noone should have any medical intervention on the basis of gender dysphoria until they are over 18. Sadly Drs Webberley dont agree

Paleblue

I don't minimise the effect of hormone treatments ut in the main considering the position i came from the effects were personally positive.

As for restricting personal freedom, apart from the present HRT shortage, I'd be surprised that such a common medication can't be accessed the world over if required. As for my dependency on health care I'm not sure my twice weekly patch change in an otherwise physically healthy body comes anywhere near the dependency of a non insulin dependent diabetic or someone with self induced COPD etc... But, I guess in the UK we are still at the position where being trans is the undesirable outcome for many so I'm likely not going to convince many. But, that's their problem not mine.

it is very unlikely that they will be diagnosed

Well yes, because we aren’t taking her anywhere near a gender doctor! She isn’t trans, but she does (suddenly) sincerely hate her sexed body and would rather be male. Classic ROGD, but according to activists, that doesn’t exist and everyone is trans if they think they might be trans.

And then pushing for informed consent and no diagnostics? It’s bollocks and gender distressed teenager deserve better.

I'd be surprised that such a common medication can't be accessed the world over if required.

Testosterone is a class C controlled substance.

I guess in the UK we are still at the position where being trans is the undesirable outcome for many so I'm likely not going to convince many.

Can you explain why you think that having major irreversible surgery (and all the risks that entails) and a lifetime requirement for opposite sex hormones is preferable to being able to come to terms with the body you were born with?

quentin

No, to hurt your head more, i am a believer in biological sex just not one that was overly comfortable with my own. I'm a trans woman who dates men or has a man to be more accurate, one is enough! That said, I don't exclude trans men from my sexual preferences either just to complicate matters further but that's another debate.

Oldcrone

For me, because no matter how hard i tried i could not come to terms with my own body. I do think being able to do so would have been easier but I couldn't. So, the hormonal and surgical pathway was a better option than the misery or carrying on trying.

They are but, the assessment criteria aren't dictated by the patients therefore, not so much now, but in days gone by patients may have presented to the clinician in a fashion that may be described as a bit more binary than they normally would.

Its a symbiotic relationship between 'gender specialists' & patients (who, in the context of private practice, are also customers)