Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Isn't Helen Webberley still prevented from providing services in UK?

259 replies

LoveGrowsWhere · 06/08/2019 10:43

Because she's being quoted as an expert in this article.
inews.co.uk/news/puberty-blockers-transgender-rights-nhs-gender-clinic-uk-tavistock/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

OP posts:
PaleBlueMoonlight · 06/03/2020 11:20

*conflicts with women's rights

OnlyTheTitOfTheLangBerg · 06/03/2020 11:24

Rather than preventing men offending against women, having a wide ranging legislation against trans women can demonise a small subset of people without having the intended effect.

You don't get it. We are not objecting to transwomen in our spaces. We are objecting to men in our spaces. Transwomen are men. Ergo, TW are included in the 'no men' boundary. We do not object to you trying to use our spaces because you are trans. We object to you trying to use our spaces because you are male.

It can start with spaces and given the right conditions move on to identity badges and it tends to go down hill from there.

No. Female-only spaces continue being female-only spaces as they have been for years. Not female? Not your space. Nobody needs a badge, nobody needs a star, nobody needs anything except to respect the fact that if you're born male you use the male spaces, regardless of how you choose to identify. And if there's an issue there because men have problems sharing their spaces with feminine-presenting men, that's an issue for you to take up with men. Why are you allowed to be afraid of a minority of men who might make trouble for you, but women are not afforded the same courtesy?

statsgeek1 · 06/03/2020 11:53

Onltthetip

I do get it. I understand if I'm right that your opinion appear to be that access to an single sex space should be determined by what was recorded on the paperwork by the midwife in the delivery suite et.al

I'm not afraid a minority of men may make trouble for me but what I don't quite understand is how you would propose to enforce it? The main space where this occurs numbers wise surely has to be a public toilet. In the absence of genital checks which quite a number of us would pass and without the risk of ostracizing some females who don't meet a particular feminine enough standard I'm not sure how you would go about enforcing it? That said I'm also not overly confident that all the GC minded people in the world would welcome very butch trans men with bald heads and beards into their space. But, if so couldn't that also then lead to men claiming to be trans men? All of which suggests the only way to achieve your aim without question would be to force all trans people into a third space and require them to carry some form of ID e.g. A badge.

TinselAngel · 06/03/2020 12:00

Or to précis "We're going to do it anyway even though we know you don't like it, and you can't stop us"

PaleBlueMoonlight · 06/03/2020 12:04

It is enforced by people knowing their biological sex and going into the appropriate single sex space for their sex, the way it has always been. If they are uncomfortable with that, then they should use the unisex space that we should be campaigning for. There is no need for ID or checks. This has always been the system and has always been supported. It is what allows women and men to challenge someone of the opposite sex in their loo and why people feel embarrassed/uncomfortable if they get it wrong. Current trans ideology is trying to break that social contract and normalise the presence of men in women's spaces and vice versa.

I recognise that there is a potential issue with transmen using women's loos, because they tend to pass very well (albeit usually as boys/young men).

PaleBlueMoonlight · 06/03/2020 12:06

It is not the job of women to police men. It is the job of men to stay out of women's spaces.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 12:13

All adults have the responsibility to the Safeguarding of children & Vulnerable Adult.

It is rather astonishing to read that some adult males are stating that they will continue to breech a single-sex safeguard unless women can police it 24/7.

When the two young girls were assaulted by a transwoman in Scottish supermarkets women's loos, I rather thought that decent adults in the trans community woud take a step back, consider the implications of policies and be more proactive rather than demanding for themselves.

OnlyTheTitOfTheLangBerg · 06/03/2020 12:15

"We're going to do it anyway even though we know you don't like it, and you can't stop us"

Yup. Not a shred of empathy, not a glimmer of self-reflection, not a moment of realisation how this tramples over women's boundaries. Just more "well tough shit, you can't stop us".

We don't want to police anyone's genitals. We want decent men - including decent transwomen - to STAY OUT. If all the decent men did that, we could feel confident in calling out, challenging, calling Security or the police on the others - because they wouldn't be decent men, they'd be in our spaces for nefarious purposes. And we'd feel confident we'd be supported in doing so, not called transphobes or bigots. Other than that I honestly don't care where you go, third spaces or men's spaces - it's not my problem. Just take some personal responsibility to do the right thing and respect women's boundaries. And if you won't do that, then you're not as decent as you like to think yourself.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 12:23

I'm not afraid a minority of men may make trouble for me but what I don't quite understand is how you would propose to enforce it?

I imagine that as is happening the most vulnerable females will be protected first and single sex spaces re-established.
Women's right to safety, dignity & privacy in hospitals and prisons will likely be enforced first. The NHS & MoJ should have accurate indentifying information about patients prioners & staff. This is a matter of Safeguarding & Duty of Care for all concerned.
The policies which prioritised the wants/needs of males who identify as women will be reviewed of course.

Now would seem a good time to stop making demands of women & to support those making pragmatic proposals.
Lord Lucas started this debate in the House of Lords recently.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 12:26

Other than that I honestly don't care where you go, third spaces or men's spaces - it's not my problem. Just take some personal responsibility to do the right thing and respect women's boundaries. And if you won't do that, then you're not as decent as you like to think yourself.

Males who insist on preventing women & girls re-establishing sex-based boundaries represent a Safeguarding risk (be it direct or indirect)

OldCrone · 06/03/2020 12:32

I'm not afraid a minority of men may make trouble for me but what I don't quite understand is how you would propose to enforce it?

It's not about enforcement, it's about being a decent human being. Do you identify as a decent human being stats? You know you are male, why don't you use male spaces? Women have said we don't want male people in our spaces. If you're a decent human being why do you insist on ignoring our wishes?

As for transmen, do men object to them in their spaces like toilets and changing rooms? This is an issue for men and transmen to deal with, and is nothing like the issue of men in women's spaces, because (and I'll spell this out for you even though I shouldn't have to), because men are not at risk from women in the same way as women are at risk from men.

QuentinWinters · 06/03/2020 12:33

Personally I have no issue at all with TW using female spaces for their intended purpose.
What I want, as a PP said, is for it to recognised that is a privilege and for females to retain the ability to have males removed if they are acting inappropriately.

So for example a male in a dress staring or leering, or hanging around womens spaces for too long, I want to be able to challenge them without the risk I will be prosecuted for hate crime.

Or if I'm having a smear, I want the right to request a female nurse.

Or a female counsellor if I'm having treatment.

Experience has taught me, as well as millions of others, not to ignore intuition and I want that respected.

statsgeek1 · 06/03/2020 12:36

TipofThe

"We're going to do it anyway even though we know you don't like it, and you can't stop us"

I thought I'd clarify that those were not my words just in case they get lost in a crowd of misrepresentation. I understood you have a position which i am not wholly against, I asked how you would enforce that particular position in those particular circumstances. You answered sensibly and even noted a shortcoming with a comment i did not really disagree with. To then use the words above to infer it's my opinion seems a bit of a step back really but, whilst it's a shame, I'm not surprised.

TinselAngel · 06/03/2020 12:39

That was me, and you've cut out the bit when I said it was a précis. Nobody is suggesting it is anything other than a précis.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 12:40

Personally I have no issue at all with TW using female spaces for their intended purpose.

The purpose of female spaces being for females?

All TW are male.

Are you familiar with the two young girls who were assaluted by a TW in the Scottish supermarkets female loos?
Please do have a read as it has implications for all little girls who go shopping/to the cinema or sports event/out for a meal with their Dad or Grandad.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3496984-Article-in-Dundee-Courier-about-assault-of-10-year-old-girl-in-supermarket-toilets

statsgeek1 · 06/03/2020 12:42

Quentin

I agree in whole with your comment.

TinselAngel · 06/03/2020 12:47

I play Pokemon Go (bear with me). When it first came out in the school summer holidays, I'd keep bumping into some of the young village boys at pokéstops.

This gave me a strong instinct that I should avoid that situation. As whilst I had no ill intentions towards the boys, Pokemon Go could easily be used by a predator as a way to engage them in conversation and to gain their confidence. If I encouraged them to think engaging with an adult in this way was normal, I might indirectly cause them harm.

What I didn't do was to think "well I've as much right to be here as they have, and anyway, how are they going to stop me?"

If I have this instinct, why don't the trans people who don't intend any harm (obviously the majority), have the same instinct as to how accessing women's spaces gives a pass to predators?

Datun · 06/03/2020 12:50

stats, perhaps you don't realise that you are the latest in a long line of transwomen who have come on here demanding how we will police their presence in our spaces. Other than checking in their pants.

Women don't tend to challenge men in their spaces for fear of male violence. Women have learnt from the age of seven or eight, that a smile luv, will turn into a fuck off you bitch, in a heartbeat, if one is not wholly compliant.

People who are born male don't understand the issues that women live with all their lives. Or rather they do understand them, but only from their side of the fence.

Hence the challenge as to how we are going to eject you (general you). When you shouldn't be there in the first place.

If a male born individual can't be relied upon to respect women's boundaries, they are not a decent person. And should be regarded with suspicion.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 12:54

I do get it. I understand if I'm right that your opinion appear to be that access to an single sex space should be determined by what was recorded on the paperwork by the midwife in the delivery suite et.al

Everyone should know what sex they are.
People identified as trans definitely know what sex they are.

Barracker posted yesterday on a current thread discussing trans rights activists attempts to change the meaning/remove the word 'mother' from children's birth certificates so as to deny the sex-based reality of birth.

“ Jeez. The insanity that by necessity follows after you decide the law will 'recognise' a female person as 'male', when they are simply...not.

Every aspect of sexed existence, every reference to female or male, girl, boy, woman, man, mother, father, daughter, son, sister, brother, they're all references to our binary, sexed bodies. Each one is ultimately a reference to reproductive biology. They all relate to one another, they all reference sex.

You detach one single reference, and all the others must fall too, or else they conflict.

I'm pretty jaded now. There's little that would surprise me. Sports, prisons, refuges, schools. I expect no end of nonsense. But the one thing that never stops shocking me is that a law was created in the first place that took the word female, which provided recognition of the entire female sex, away from them and created a new, mixed sex, indefinable 'psyche' category that female would mean from that day on. I cannot fully comprehend the enormity of legally redefining all females so that men could be 'recognised' as females. That was the day we failed the female sex, comprehensively, utterly.

I'll never get over it, even when it's repealed, and I'm telling my great grandchildren about the insanity of the early 21st century.

"They literally stopped recognising every actual single woman and girl, every female person. And they told us that we were now all an identity instead of a sex, a psychology instead of a physiology. That was what female now meant. So that men could say they were women. And they did, hundreds of thousands of them did. There was no single word for actual females. We weren't allowed one. Our word was reallocated to men. We had to talk about ourselves as people with cervixes, or menstruators, and we had to agree that biology wasn't the real difference between the sexes, identity was. One by one, every reference to biological sex was replaced in every law with references to identity, until the law had erased any connection with female biology from pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood. Everything became something that applied to both men and women because it was forbidden to have real references to sex.
Stating that only females were women was enough to lose your job, or even be charged with a crime. Failing to agree with a man that he was a woman was enough to be ostracised, censored or threatened with legal action. Men took over women's sports, institutions, groups. Men represented us in every level of society, calling themselves women. There were no words to distinguish ourselves from these men. Everyone could see the female sex were becoming unspeakable people, unspoken of. You weren't allowed to acknowledge our separate existence from male people. Men committed crimes and society said women did it. You could never escape a man because he could follow you into any public space by identifying as female. People were very, very afraid to tell the truth.
Many hundreds of children lost their reproductive organs trying to become the other sex. It was a very dark time."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3839264-Freddy-McConnell-appeal-today-Transman-who-wants-to-be-registered-as-their-childs-father-Title-edited-by-MNHQ

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 12:59

So for example a male in a dress staring or leering, or hanging around womens spaces for too long, I want to be able to challenge them without the risk I will be prosecuted for hate crime.

Plenty of girls & women would be unable (& unwise) to make such a challenge.
Is this really the best that women feel able to ask for, not to be prosecuted for a hate crime when they challenge a man in a female single sex space?

This is asking for crumbs.

Female spaces were fought for, built & created for women & girls' safety, dignity & privacy.

TinselAngel · 06/03/2020 13:02

stats, perhaps you don't realise that you are the latest in a long line of transwomen who have come on here demanding how we will police their presence in our spaces. Other than checking in their pants.

It's also not unusual for really important threads like this to be me-railed by transexuals talking at length about why they should have access to our spaces and how we can't stop them. Often they are filibustered up to 1000 post this way.

This is a thread about drugs being illegally prescribed to children and vulnerable adults. It's not a thread about transexuals access to women's spaces.

Kit19 · 06/03/2020 13:02

Exactly! There’s a late middle aged TW in a (very small) city near my village. Very difficult to miss as they are completely Male bodied but wear fishnets and a mini skirt. They spend a lot of time in the cathedral talking to the women who work there. They do a lot of that grimacing laughter of ppl who would like to get away but can’t

I wouldn’t dream of confronting them in the loos if we were both in there alone. I wouldn’t be being accepting, Id he being bloody frightened !! Frankly anyone wondering around a chilly cathedral in the height of winter in fishnets & a mini skirt, is clearly not quite right but when they’re a man it’s even more scary. I can’t believe women are still having to explain why men can be frightening even if they don’t mean to be.

It’s like we’re saying words but not n a language no one understands

Kit19 · 06/03/2020 13:03

And sorry for falling for the derail dammit

OnlyTheTitOfTheLangBerg · 06/03/2020 13:16

Sorry TinselAngel, you're quite right. I won't get sucked in again.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 13:19

This is a thread about drugs being illegally prescribed to children and vulnerable adults. It's not a thread about transexuals access to women's spaces.

This ^^

Swipe left for the next trending thread