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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Isn't Helen Webberley still prevented from providing services in UK?

259 replies

LoveGrowsWhere · 06/08/2019 10:43

Because she's being quoted as an expert in this article.
inews.co.uk/news/puberty-blockers-transgender-rights-nhs-gender-clinic-uk-tavistock/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 13:42

Though thanks to the internet, people can access important scientific papers published by the BMJ & judicial findings amongst other things.

It is of course always worth going to the original published source & reading for oneself rather than blindly accepting other people's interpretations.
Also always important to read carefully & reflect on what is actually written & what this means before reacting.

(Just as every English teacher has ever advised)

mement0mori · 05/03/2020 13:54

If HW has been on an interim suspension order since Nov 2018, I wonder how much longer until the substantive hearing? Perhaps MPTS will hear HW and MW cases at the same time.

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 14:00

The failure to adequately rule on the fitness of Drs Webberley to practice & make public the evidence has left many childen & Vulnerable Adults at risk as has been evidenced on this thread.

mement0mori · 05/03/2020 14:11

I expect it's quite a complex case and I suppose the interim order is there to protect the public while the case is being prepared. It is worrying how easy it has been for them to operate from elsewhere but I suppose that is out of the hands of the MPTS.

ItsLateHumpty · 05/03/2020 14:12

....but there is not one lie in anything I have written on here.

I totally agree. It's not one lie.

(If that's too subtle - it is not one lie, it's many lies).

The shame is that you appear to want to talk, but you can't hear.

Cw19752 · 05/03/2020 14:25

Wow - just wow , the nasty comments keep flowing don’t they? Silly me for thinking that there could be decent human beings behind these highly inaccurate posts.

If you converse with people like this person to person in real life and without hiding behind your keyboards then I guess I can see why you are on here in the beginning and not out in the real world with real people as you can’t have many if any friends.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 14:33

One’s own perception of truth and actual truth is not quite the same thing.

GenderGP still offer shared care agreements with the NHS, this is sort of true. They say they ‘no longer favour shared care agreements’

Working with your doctor
In the past, we have favoured a formal ‘shared care agreement’ which is similar to the way that hospital doctors collaborate with family doctors This involves GenderGP providing expert guidance via a formal, signed document, which your doctor can then follow. While some doctors have been very willing to prescribe and do blood tests under the supervision of gender experts, others, who do not understand or are simply uncomfortable administering gender-related healthcare, have not. In these cases, the suggestion of such an arrangement has caused much consternation. This has resulted in further delays and barriers to treatment – all the things we are working hard at GenderGP to avoid
Treatment Summaries
To overcome these barriers, GenderGP will no longer favour a ‘shared care agreement’ model. Instead, where medical involvement is required and agreed, we will provide you with regular ‘treatment summaries’ which can be given to your doctor. This will include details of your medication, the blood tests you need and any other important information your doctor needs to know. The treatment summary is intended to provide enough information for your doctor to feel comfortable prescribing your medication and carrying out the necessary blood tests. The gender specialist that GenderGP refers you to will give full instructions on the doses of medication you should take, the blood tests you need and what the results mean.

www.gendergp.com/working-with-your-gp/

So essentially, the mean GPs are suspicious and looking at us too closely so we don’t want to work with them any more in case they rumble a) we aren’t registered T493 gender specialists and b) that we are suspended from practice:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-dysphoria-list-of-specialists-t493

ItsLateHumpty · 05/03/2020 14:36

Dunno CW, I'm as much behind a keyboard as you, so guess we're both sad sacks without mates and here rather than out because we can't have many friends.

Don't be mad though. It's a waste. If you want a convo, I'd suggest not insulting those you're trying to reach.

GCAcademic · 05/03/2020 14:36

The misogynist language and attitudes that drip from your posts is very telling, Cw.

"nasty . . . vile . . . bitching . . . mean girls . . . bints".

Explains a lot, if you're capable of a bit of reflection.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 05/03/2020 14:40

What started as me providing a (very civil) different point of view to you all turned in to an attack on me

Cw, disagreement is not an attack. Honestly, I can't see anyone being rude here, apart from one person calling people bitches, bints, mean, vile, etc.

Like I said, though, I am always happy to hear other viewpoints.

I'd mostly appreciate solid information - not anecdote. Peer reviewed research would be best.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 05/03/2020 14:41

CW, honestly, maybe you would be best taking a wee bit of time to reflect on things? You seem to be getting really upset, and as far as I can tell it's because people here aren't agreeing with you.

Again, you are the only one flinging insults about. Can you really not see that?

ItsLateHumpty · 05/03/2020 14:42

And apropos of wateves cw the women here, they're fking amazing and they'll listen, and kick your arse, and make you a cuppa.

They are not weak, or weak minded, or 'old', or behind the times. They will make sure you're ok. If you want that.

Peace x

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 14:43

I havent heard anyone calling women/girls 'bints' for years.

Imagine doing so on a feminist chat board Hmm

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 14:46

Don't be mad though. It's a waste. If you want a convo, I'd suggest not insulting those you're trying to reach.

This is very true (always).

OnlyTheTitOfTheLangBerg · 05/03/2020 14:49

Cw please point to anything that anyone has said which is as "nasty" as:

bitching
whining
mean girls
vile
hateful
bints
full of spite

Only one person here is throwing around "nasty" comments.

The fact that you see fairly measured disagreement, backed up with evidence, as "hateful" is interesting. It suggests that you can't bear any possible divergence from your personal worldview and that you have to attack others in order to defend it. What are you afraid of by acknowledging that your repeated defences of the Webberleys and GenderGP may be flawed, at the very least in part? Is this part of a dependence on the external validation of others to prop up your gender identity, which becomes more precarious if you are told 'no, reality is something different'? Such a quickness to be stirred to throw unpleasant (mostly) gendered insults suggests that perhaps transitioning has not entirely resolved your internalised misogyny and has not given you the security of self you were seeking.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 14:53

I was pretty harsh! I’m just not that into people who advocate for paediatric transition at the hands of disgraced doctors on Mumsnet. Sorry/notsorry 🤗

I wasn’t nearly as harsh as a typical AIBU poster or a bad day in Style and Beauty, mind you.

FloralBinting · 05/03/2020 14:55

Cw, read the responses. No one is insulting you. We are disagreeing, and some of us have even been courteous enough to provide you with evidenced reasons why.

statsgeek1 · 05/03/2020 16:15

In my opinion, the W's have been a much needed source of support for adult trans people over the last few years. I can't really speak for children other than to say, I'm very confident a tiny minority have GD and believe the tiny minority that do should have access to appropriate treatment provided in a peadiatric sphere with appropriate support and full engagement of the parents. To not offer that tiny minority help or treatment would not be a neutral act.

As for adults, the W's have stepped in to provide a service where the NHS was failing miserably and as far as I understand, the vast majority of adults under their care are happy with their treatment. The GMC has likely recognised that and realises that to take that away would leave a group of patients at the mercy of an unregulated supplier. To leave those who have started treatment without it for a few years until the NHS can get its act into order would again not be a neutral act.

I also think to infer that they are villains rushing vulnerable adults into unregulated care with untested medicines would be quite wide of the mark and stems from an attitude that positions being trans as always the undesirable outcome. They follow well established pathways common to other developed countries.

Even a number of post operative patients will use them after discharge from the GIC/surgical teams because many Gp's just don't seem to have a clue or want to be involved in what is essentially a very basic treatment regime. Some trans patients will often find that the only way to be treated like a human being in the medical system is to seek help from people who deal with the issue day in day out and that help is often in the private sector. There are GPs out there who will claim one minute to know nothing so they can't help but a week later be so expert on the condition that they decline to act as requested by a consultant involved in the specialist care. A bit odd really.

The other thing is, the large majority of the adults presenting for care will often have agonised over it for years, in many cases since they were children. Trying to make it go away is a common theme in a mildly socially conservative society like the UK. Despite assertions, being trans isn't the fashionable option, it will likely mean loss of family, loss of many friends and being the subject of bullying from people who should know better. That's not to say I don't think other demographics suffer the same fate, they do and it's always wrong. For these people to then present and find out they are stuck on a 3 year waiting list to see a GIC is hard. They will likely wait another year to 18 months on top of that to commence any treatment and by the time they see a surgeon most being referred today if they haven't got thousands of pounds to throw at it will probably be looking at a timescale of 6-7 years. Again, I'm not going to say there aren't other agonizingly slow areas of medical treatment but, it's always wrong.

In my opinion, what the W's stepping in to did was help to shine a huge light onto what a mess NHS gender services were in. I don't think either the NHS or the GIC's were over the moon about this and even less so when politicians started asking questions about it back in 2016. The sad thing is what could have been used to progress and improve access to trans healthcare got bogged down in discussions and consultations about GRA reform, something which in my opinion wasn't ever very high on the list of priorities for most of those suffering from the symptoms of GD.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 16:25

Many of the NHS GICs are unable to recruit and/or retains staff because gender medicine is so fraught with politics.

The Webberley’s stepped into a vacuum (that in an ideal world, shouldn’t have been allowed to occur), motivated by profit.

They prescribed cross sex hormones to a 12 YEAR OLD and a young patient of theirs recently committed suicide.

None of the other private providers accept patients under the age of 18. The Webberleys are irresponsible.

mement0mori · 05/03/2020 16:35

As for adults, the W's have stepped in to provide a service where the NHS was failing miserably and as far as I understand, the vast majority of adults under their care are happy with their treatment. The GMC has likely recognised that and realises that to take that away would leave a group of patients at the mercy of an unregulated supplier

But the GMC have taken 'that' away as the Waverley's are suspended. I wonder if they are even indemnified? If reports of them setting up abroad are true, they also they are working whilst suspended which means they are ignoring their regulator's rules. I can't really see this going well for the Waverley's when their case is heard. Working (as a doctor) whilst suspended is a big no no.

QuentinWinters · 05/03/2020 16:47

The other thing is, the large majority of the adults presenting for care will often have agonised over it for years, in many cases since they were children. Trying to make it go away is a common theme in a mildly socially conservative society like the UK.

  1. what leads you to characterise the UK as socially conservative? I think we are a progressive country compared to most, I'm interested why your views differ

  2. That makes sense from the perspective where you are a transitioned adult who suffered gender confusion as a child. But it seems likely you are in the minority. Most children with gender dysphoria desist after puberty. How do you suggest we protect those children from the permanent effects of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones? Apparently it isnt possible to know which children will desist.

statsgeek1 · 05/03/2020 16:51

duLANG

I do understand that trans healthcare is fraught with politics. But, it needn't be, especially for adults. It's quite simple, there is a diagnostic criteria (currently ICD 10 soon to change to 11 I believe). Once diagnosed there is a standard treatment pathway. Normally psychiatric/counseling, medical and then for every trans person I know surgical. The only politics that arise in a medical sense (and I only refer to a medical sense here) is that some people even in 2020 are uncomfortable with trans people. That can include Gp's. But, that is their problem, they need help.

Of course the W's were partially motivated by profit but, as far as adults are concerned they are also providing a great help. I'm not sure you'll find many NHS cardiologists who are doing private consultations on the weekend that aren't motivated by profit so, I don't think the W's are unique here.

Did they provide cross sex hormones or did they provide blockers to the twelve year old? I honestly don't know but, they are not the same thing and as far as I am aware in the UK it would be highly unusual to provide cross sex hormones to an under 16. That said I'm led to believe with respect to blockers by 2017 around 800 under 18's had been prescribed blockers for trans related healthcare. I suppose around about 0.0064% of the under 18 population.

With regards to the sucide, it's absolutely tragic that it happened full stop and I can't even imagine how the parents must feel. It fills me with sorrow. To think that cases like this would then be weaponised for political capital is really disappointing. Reading about it though, I am yet to find any direct blame for the suicide accredited to the W's. I don't know if it's the same case or not but, one adolescent died as a result of suicide shortly after receiving a letter from GIDS advising that despite waiting a few years to be seen, they were now being transferred to adult services where the wait would be another three years.

Of course many Dr's both medical and psychiatric are involved in the care of those who end their own lives, it's always sad for everyone involved but, it doesn't necessarily follow that blame is aportioned to the practitioner who has been treating them.

statsgeek1 · 05/03/2020 17:00

mement

Although I am not 100 pr cent sure I think that you will find they refer adults to a network of gender specialists and endocrinologists from other countries so patients can be treated privately. As far as I am aware the UK has not yet stopped its citizens seeking private treatment abroad although with the ever so increasingly authoritarian regime in number 10 it may be coming. Any hope that would refer to only trans people though is I expect a long one.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 05/03/2020 17:04

Medical transition is just one option for treating gender dysphoria (which has multiple causes). Some of the medical interventions are cosmetic, but still drastic and often irreversible. Many of them might seriously compromise the health of the patient and have to be actively managed. Medical intervention was previously a treatment of last resort. Why would medical transition be considered if the cause of the dysphoria has not been identified and other treatments (or ways of managing/living with the dysphoria) have not been explored and rejected. It has little to do with whether you are transgender and everything to do with whether medical transition is the best/only treatment for the symptom of gender dysphoria being experienced by that person.

For those without gender dysphoria I do not think that medical transition should not be on the table (unless the person wishes to access cosmetic treatments privately to the extent it is ethical to provide that treatment).

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 17:09

With regards to the sucide, it's absolutely tragic that it happened full stop and I can't even imagine how the parents must feel. It fills me with sorrow. To think that cases like this would then be weaponised for political capital is really disappointing. Reading about it though, I am yet to find any direct blame for the suicide accredited to the W's

There is no 'weaponisation' here. That's a gross false accusation.
There is a recognition & concern for the multiple Safeguarding framework failings which did not adequately protect a vulnerable young female who tragically died by suicide.
Jayden's parents have called for a second inquest/inquiry.

"[Jayden] was buying the £360-a-year treatment from Helen and Mike Webberley, who have since moved their clinic Online GP Services Ltd from Wales to Spain after being refused a licence from the NHS.

The couple have also been suspended by the GMC having been told their care 'fell below the standards expected' in the treatment of three transgender patients prescribed puberty blockers and hormones. They have treated children as young as 12, it has emerged."
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7200189/Mothers-agony-transgender-son-18-took-life-months-paying-hormone-therapy.html

RTFT
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3625515-Patient-of-webberlys-commits-suicide