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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish feminists; what the hell is happening over there?

220 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 04/08/2019 10:35

The abuse this woman is receiving is shocking. All she did was express concern that female prisoners are being forced to share a prison with a male sex offender.
m.facebook.com/groups/40786971590?view=permalink&id=10157372207521591

OP posts:
3timeslucky · 04/08/2019 16:42

What are Nell McCafferty's thoughts on all of this?
During the Repeal campaign I saw a couple of references to her being unwell (prompted by some unusual commentary by her at the time - as in unusual because it didn't seem consistent with previous commentary). I don't know if she is unwell or in what way, though she didn't seem herself last time I heard her on the radio (which probably was during the campaign). I have heard nothing from her on trans ideology.

NottonightJosepheen · 04/08/2019 17:02

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MarDhea · 04/08/2019 17:06

Duchess I don't think I'm being misty-eyed with regards to history (and can talk about all the negatives for women under Gaelic culture as well, from early marriage to the inability to inherit clan lands), but I absolutely acknowledge that individual experiences vary enormously.

Sample an Irish family at random in the 1970s-1990s, and you would definitely find some that were extremely patriarchal where the father's word was law and the women of then family had to run around tending to him. That was the subservient version of womanhood and motherhood that the church actively encouraged.

But surveys and oral evidence of the period suggests that these kind of households were in the minority, and that it was more common for a woman in the family (mother, grandmother) to be dominant or co-dominant with the man. This strong Irish mammy trope occurred everywhere from rural farming families to Moore St traders in Dublin. It appeared across all social classes but may have been less common in middle-to-upper class Dublin amongst the professional establishment. The "Irish mammy" is a facile and fairly recent label for this kind of social power.

Irish women were sometimes rule enforcers if the patriarchy, certainly. The Legion of Mary and similar were full of handmaidens of the church, pushing conformity on everyone (but particularly other women and girls). On the other hand, many others weren't, and there were plenty of Irish women who were known colloquially by their maiden names all their lives, controlled the family finances, were the ones who made major decisions about things like moving house, quietly helped their pregnant daughters on the boat to England rather than hand them over to a laundry ("not a word to your father"), and raised sons who respected women as people enough to marry a strong woman in their turn. It was a limited sort of power in its range, but strong nonetheless.

Rubidium · 04/08/2019 17:13

I'm sorry to hear that Nell McCafferty may be unwell. I lived in Ireland in the 90s and she was always worth a listen and a read, and that was before I read up about the Belfast contraceptive trains. Wishing her well, wherever she may be.

DuchessDumbarton · 04/08/2019 17:16

MarDhea you seem to know your topic in depth, and I bow to your knowledge.
I can only talk about my own experience.

It sounds as if my family of origin was one of the minority then.

To go back to the original topic, I still wonder if "woke" Irish feminists reflect my type of upbringing where "being kind" is more important than boundaries.

FloralBunting · 04/08/2019 17:30

Some really interesting posts on this thread, thank you to MarDhea especially. You've reminded me that there isn't a clear, neat divide between compliant women and women who rebel openly. There have always been women who hold on to whatever independence they can in a system weighted against them. That's cheered me up today.

NottonightJosepheen · 04/08/2019 17:32

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MarDhea · 04/08/2019 17:37

Duchess growing up to believe women were subservient to men must have been awful - I'm sorry your family was like that. Your warrior nun relative sounds awesome, though Grin I've met a couple of nuns like her whom I respected enormously as strong women, even if I didn't share their religious beliefs!

DuchessDumbarton · 04/08/2019 17:41

Ah thanks MarDhea....it wasn't awful. It's more that, as an adult, I've had to unpick my own behaviour and automatic responses and learn boundaries.
My warrior aunt is someone I've come to really appreciate as an adult...and she is well able to tolerate someone who doesn't share her religious beliefs. If anything, she enjoys the intellectual stimulation of being challenged!

DuchessDumbarton · 04/08/2019 17:41

too many "as an adult" there....must proofread better

MarDhea · 04/08/2019 17:55

It was only as an adult that I realised my upbringing wasn't the same as everybody else's, and that a few people my age really did believe that women are lesser beings.

I remember a conversation with a male contemporary when I was 22-23 that left me absolutely gobsmacked. He was the first person I had met that truly believed at heart that men were inherently better thinkers and had the greater share of talent in all domains. What a plonker. I could run rings around him intellectually but apparently I was the exception that proved the rule Hmm

Turned out his mammy was a big fan of Breda O'Brien, so his views all began to make sense after that. Grin

justforthisnow · 04/08/2019 18:04

@mardhea I'm fairly sure I had a brief fling with that fool 😂

MinnieTheSphinx · 04/08/2019 18:04

I agree that Irish feminism needs a different approach and I loathe seeing policies that have been defined by foreign funded or foreign based organisations.

But quite happy to put Irish feminists right by importing the type of alleged feminism practised by a relatively tiny number of women in England? Hmm

NottonightJosepheen · 04/08/2019 18:08

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MarDhea · 04/08/2019 18:11

justforthisnow ThanksGrin

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 04/08/2019 18:14

There are a lot of similarities between genderism and religion.

There's an interesting catholic herald article which notes even the similarities with certain prayer.

GrapefruitIsGross · 04/08/2019 18:18

But quite happy to put Irish feminists right by importing the type of alleged feminism practised by a relatively tiny number of women in England?

I think you’ll be disappointed to find that the “Let’s keep penises out of women’s prisons/hospital wards/refuges” isn’t an obscure brand of feminism, but more like something that most people, Irish and British, view as so obvious that it shouldn’t need to be said.

Juells · 04/08/2019 18:32

I've met a couple of nuns like her whom I respected enormously as strong women, even if I didn't share their religious beliefs!

There was an interesting book written about thirty years ago, a woman researched the reasons why so many Irish women joined Canadian orders back in the first half of the last century. IIRC it was a way for women from poor families to avoid the choices of 'barefoot and pregnant' or being lay sisters in a convent. In Canadian orders they could become teachers, and have a satisfying life. I've searched, but never managed to find the book.

MockerstheFeManist · 04/08/2019 18:36

Trans Ideology seems remarkably similar to transubstantiation.

SonEtLumiere · 04/08/2019 18:38

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nonsenceagain · 04/08/2019 21:52

Isn’t it just, mockers?

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 04/08/2019 22:48

It is absolutely surreal reading them defending a male sex offender being placed in a women's prison. I feel like I'm watching history reading that, just imagining what the history books will say about this insane time.

You have to be under several layers of brainwashing in order to not actually see that for what it is. And especially in Ireland too, a previously very traditional Catholic society and one where women have suffered for decades particularly in terms of pregnancies outside of marriage. It's hard to get my head around the way they've adopted this nonsense idea so wholeheartedly. To Irish women, is this idea mainly still confined to the youth or have the older generations adopted it too?

Who needs MRAs when you have brainwashed women like that. When they do finally wake up, I hope they apologise to everyone they abused, like they are abusing that woman on that thread. They are so aggressive, and sickeningly seem to be enjoying the power trip of shouting down the one woman who dared to say the truth.

I hope she finds gender critical spaces and doesn't assume everyone is as insane as those women.

pachyderm · 04/08/2019 23:35

I wonder how Minnie and friends reconcile their "pure" Irish feminism with the fact that many of their prominent TRA/pro prostitution influencers are Americans? Or how in their weird Year Zero approach to history they might ponder on why there was no hint of this nonsense til about 2012?

"UK Terfs Out" was of course written on the orders of an American TRA (as proudly boasted about on Twitter) I don't usually like namecalling but how utterly handmaidenish is that? Morto for you.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 05/08/2019 00:31

I think that Ireland and Scotland adopted transgenderism wholeheartedly to try to distance themselves from their unpopular cousin, England, since England started questioning transgenderism at the same time it voted for Brexit. The same way Canada adopted it to distance themselves from the US and Trump.

ie. 'if you adopt transgenderism that means you're woke and good and kind and not a horrible bigot like those dreadful English and American people.'