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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish feminists; what the hell is happening over there?

220 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 04/08/2019 10:35

The abuse this woman is receiving is shocking. All she did was express concern that female prisoners are being forced to share a prison with a male sex offender.
m.facebook.com/groups/40786971590?view=permalink&id=10157372207521591

OP posts:
JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 04/08/2019 12:49

You’re spot on nottonight.

GrapefruitIsGross · 04/08/2019 12:51

I’m in NI and yes, we’ve been shielded from much of the ideology due to our Dumpster Fire of a society being distracted by other things.

You do see some flashes of it though- if anyone follows/ed the Alliance For Choice they have come out with some crackers about “pregnant people” and including trans shit in the abortion legislation down south.

I asked them why the Repeal crowd went for “Trust Women” as opposed to “Trust people with uteruses” and they came back with the usual TWAW word-salad. A number of women had liked my comment (more than their responses), so people are questioning it, even if silently.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 04/08/2019 13:03

Yes grapefruits, alliance shared a post the other day about Paula Bradshaws support for TransgenderNI healthcare proposals which includes removing the requirement for children identifying as trans undergoing MH assessment before accessing transitioning support services.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 04/08/2019 13:07

Apologies, I’m confusing alliance for choice and the alliance party. Point still stands though.

Safe abortion Ireland have banned me for questioning their “inclusive” language - “cis women”.

MadamBatty · 04/08/2019 13:09

JAY SUS joxer.

Juells · 04/08/2019 13:37

I asked them why the Repeal crowd went for “Trust Women” as opposed to “Trust people with uteruses” and they came back with the usual TWAW word-salad.

Ooh, good point.

Menstruators-including-those-not-menstruating-just-at-the-moment-or-who've-finished-menstruating-or-haven't-started-yet

Cervix-havers-including-those-who've-had-their-womb-and-cervix-surgically-removed

Juells · 04/08/2019 13:37

...or from a quote on another thread WWW (WomenWithWombs)

MarDhea · 04/08/2019 14:09

This is actually a really interesting case study of a society with very traditional values (male dominance, Catholic religion, nationalism) suddenly adopting very liberal values. The emphasis on faith and devotion remain, as does the deference to men and their needs, and the fact that opposing views can be ascribed to the old enemy is the icing on the cake.

I honestly don't recognise this characterisation. I'm in my 40s and the "very traditional values" thing belonged to my parents' generation, not mine. The Ireland I grew up in was catholic and conformist alright, but it was already beginning to disintegrate when I was a child and teenager, with the X case and institutional and sexual abuse by the church, etc., and I was not conditioned into an automatic deference to men and their needs. If anything, the very strongly matriarchal culture of the Irish mammy meant that an automatic deference to the mother was more common than deference to the man. By the time I was a young adult, none of my peers were religious, and liberal views on issues like divorce and gay rights, etc. were the norm (polls from the period bear this out) .

And that was a whole generation ago! The recent legal changes like marriage equality and abortion rights came about because my generation had finally taken over political power in the country from the older generation, not because everyone had suddenly dropped traditional/religious values and latched onto wokeism as a replacement.

The woke young adults in their teens and 20s you see in Ireland now who have swallowed the TWAW line mostly have parents of my generation, and grew up in households that were culturally catholic only (ceremonial events in the church - baptised, married, buried, etc. ... but completely ignore the church as irrelevant on anything else, most notably social issues like contraception, abortion, homosexuality, IVF, and so on). And Ireland is also full of young adults in their teens and 20s who grew up in similar households but who do not hold that TWAW. They are compassionate about the perceived distress experienced by trans people and against any discrimination, but they also tend to assume that trans people use gender neutral bathrooms and changing rooms rather than male/female ones (as provided in most Irish universities, for example) and that TW don't actually compete in women's sports (probably because it hasn't come up in the GAA yet). This second group tend to be less visible online in public fora like Twitter and FB groups, but it can be seen a lot in private conversations like people's FB feeds and especially irl.

I think the "replacing religion with wokeism" line sounds neat and tidy but it's superficial and doesn't bear close scrutiny. There is a gap of at least one generation between Irish people dropping traditional religious views and the emergence of the woke TWAW view. Something else is driving some - and only some - of the current generation of young adults to uncritical woke activism.

Personally, I think a recent FWR thread hit the nail on the head: it's to do with seeking social approval and validation after rejecting other routes like the pornified Instagram ideal foisted on young women.

3timeslucky · 04/08/2019 14:22

I asked them why the Repeal crowd went for “Trust Women” as opposed to “Trust people with uteruses

If the Repeal crowd were coming up with a slogan today it would be Trust people with uteruses. The vast majority of TRAs I see on-line and in the media came straight from the Repeal movement. Towards the end of the campaign it became really noticeable that the TWAW ideology was creeping in. At the time I had no idea what was going on or why this was happening or where it was coming from. It was just suddenly there. Then wham there were nothing but "pregnant people" and women were side-lined in the pursuit of woke-brownie-points. It is beyond enraging.

Don't get me started on the irony of this crowd of activists who dedicated blood, sweat and tears to calling out the damage done by RC ideology flip-flopping into an equally destructive, male centric, faith-based ideology. And they cannot see it. And they can hear nothing. There seems to be a cohort of people who define themselves by their activism and as the need to campaign for Repeal dried up they threw themselves unthinkingly into the next cause, patted themselves on the back for their woker-than-wokeness and found a new direction and raison d'etre. Not in my name they don't. Fuckers.

MarDhea · 04/08/2019 14:26

There seems to be a cohort of people who define themselves by their activism and as the need to campaign for Repeal dried up they threw themselves unthinkingly into the next cause, patted themselves on the back for their woker-than-wokeness and found a new direction and raison d'etre. Not in my name they don't. Fuckers.

^^ This.

TeintDeNeige · 04/08/2019 14:26

This is so depressing.

My mother (GC Irish feminist in her 70s) has recently completely fallen out with an old and dear friend (Irish feminist in her 60s) over this.

Friend and a group of younger Irish (woke) feminists shouted my mum down at a gathering in the pub over TWAW. The youngsters accused my mum - who has tirelessly campaigned for abortion rights for Irish women since the 1970s - of being a transphobic dinosaur who wasn’t standing up for the rights of her trans ‘sisters’.

Juells · 04/08/2019 14:30

and I was not conditioned into an automatic deference to men and their needs.

That was my experience as well, @MarDhea

I think that looking at Irish society from the outside it was easy to miss what a matriarchal society it was. Is?

Juells · 04/08/2019 14:35

In case you missed it at the time, here's a thread I started a few weeks ago.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3626988-Put-back-in-my-box?pg=1
I never replied to the email, it would just have been shovelling shit against the tide.

DuchessDumbarton · 04/08/2019 14:39

MarDhea I am a similar age to you, and similarly, grew up with similar stereotypical values parents.
Unlike you, I think the " strongly matriarchal culture of the Irish mammy" was a symptom of the patriarchal structures, not a contradiction of them.
"Mammy", who toed the line by bearing many children and rearing them to also toe the line, had a powerful position. Powerful, as long as she did not challenge the hierarchy.
"Mammy" did not have inherent power of her own. Deference to "the mother" (in my view) was deference to the power enforcer, rather than an inherent respect for women.

The repeal of the structural impediments to women (divorce, unmarried motherhood, abortion) seems to me to be window dressing on the "great little country" story. Underneath, the inherent contempt for women hasn't "gone away, you know".

To my mind, the TWAW warriors are the latest manifestation of (biological XX) women hatred- and women who get on board with it, are saving their own hides, just as women always have.

magicstar1 · 04/08/2019 14:40

Bloody hell they're all just trying to see who can shout Terf the loudest!

I’m in Ireland and have been having conversations with a lot of people about these issues. Not one has behaved like this. I’m in my 40’s and have talked with my boss, friends, and even just people in the pub - we all have the same opinion on the trans issue. I wouldn’t think that that FB page is representative of the average woman.

Juells · 04/08/2019 14:44

I don't know anyone who's swallowed it hook line and sinker, like those fb posters have. As magicstar1 says, it's like a competition to see who is the most on-message.

NottonightJosepheen · 04/08/2019 14:46

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NottonightJosepheen · 04/08/2019 14:47

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3timeslucky · 04/08/2019 14:50

Agree with DuchessDunbarton and NottonightJosepheen. The Irish Mammy has never had power or influence to challenge the patriarchal power, influence and structures that have been the lynchpins of Irish society.

MadamBatty · 04/08/2019 14:50

MarDhea, I’m 50. I come from a working class background as do most of my mates. I agree with you, I wasn’t brought up with deference to men. I had 2 very strong teachers for all of primary. They were fierce that the girls they thought could do anything they wanted to do & really pushed me to question well everything. Both nuns.

My mates are the same. They all were the first in their families to go to university, they’ve done well in their chosen professions through perseverance & hard work. They’d all describe themselves as feminists.

However the whole twaw mantra is repeated by them & no debate on that subject is allowed.

Maybe I have a very unusual group of friends

NottonightJosepheen · 04/08/2019 14:56

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MadamBatty · 04/08/2019 14:57

That should be taught not thought. Doh

Juells · 04/08/2019 14:57

I come from a working class background as do most of my mates. I agree with you, I wasn’t brought up with deference to men. I had 2 very strong teachers for all of primary. They were fierce that the girls they thought could do anything they wanted to do & really pushed me to question well everything. Both nuns.

I'm the product of nuns as well, and agree with you that there was no deference to men.

NottonightJosepheen · 04/08/2019 15:09

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DuchessDumbarton · 04/08/2019 15:16

I have a family member who was a teaching nun.
I agree - she had a unique point of view, with little deference to men.

To her face, as a "holy nun" Hmm, people listened to , and agreed with her (astoundingly liberal) points of view. She had "worked on the missions" so had real life experience of back street abortions, girls being co-opted into prostitution to feed the rest of the family etc.
So, she spoke about the need to support single mothers, safe abortion, education for women etc.

She was and is a brave lady, and I personally have a lot of time for nuns as a result.
But, it doesn't take away from the prevailing patriarchal tenor of the times.

I sit on an education type board, and had the conversation with an older man recently, where he intimated that "the nuns didn't allow" girls to study Honours Maths in the mid-to-late 80's.
What this gentleman glibly ignored was, that "the nuns" were as subject to the misogynistic rules of the church as anyone else....and every convent was under the auspice of the local bishop. The bishop's word on what subjects were taught is was law.

So, it doesn't surprise me that some posters learned not to defer to men automatically...but it doesn't mean that society was matriarchal.
It means that you were lucky to have met the vanguard of the push for change.
Liberal nuns are a powerful force (if you've ever spent time with them).

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