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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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This is a good thread about female trans allies

999 replies

Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 16:00

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

OP posts:
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TheInebriati · 30/07/2019 16:04

There are some really good insights on that thread, especially the comment about most of the anger being directed at older women.

I think there is also an element of deflection with some 'activists' - ''attack her not me''.

FormerMediocreMale · 30/07/2019 16:10

Thats a great thread.

Popchyk · 30/07/2019 16:32

Very interesting.

"Trans people aren't the only ones playing dress up here".

Quite.

Kinda makes me think of Live Action Role Play. Pick a heroic character and you can be that character if you just follow the one simple rule (denouncing women). The gamemasters will always keep you in the game if you follow The Rule.

Because what would you be if you weren't in the game?

Lara Crofting on Twitter.

AbsintheFriends · 30/07/2019 16:39

Excellent, insightful thread.

I also like the comment about it being a validation of young women's desire to reject their mothers' values.

TirisfalPumpkin · 30/07/2019 16:43

That rings very true with the handmaidens I know - right down to the MLMs.

I am conflicted. They seem desperately unhappy, deeply anxious and lacking in something they need. My feminism should be for women, even women like them. But it is hard to restrain the decidedly un-feminist ‘those fucking traitor cowbag bitches’ thoughts. Mostly ‘unfollow’ has helped.

AutumnCrow · 30/07/2019 16:46

Wow. That's powerful.

Maniak · 30/07/2019 17:06

That's awful. Young women are susceptible to "hive mind" more than young men who are famous for being such clear thinkers? Young women with opinions are clearly trying to compensate for not being pretty enough? Gross.

These are women with opinions. Agree or disagree, that is fine, but this is not "analysis" it's misogyny.

Datun · 30/07/2019 17:06

I think she's really got something.

There are quite a few women who comment here saying they used to be tra ally but then they saw things differently. I wonder if they will comment and agree with what she has said.

LangCleg · 30/07/2019 17:21

I saw this earlier and I agree with Datun - she's on to something.

It also ties in with Jo Bartosch's recent contribution at the Make More Noise event:

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/the-elephant-in-the-room-part-two

the urge to put other women down in order to raise one’s self up is one of the greatest barriers our movement faces

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 17:28

That's awful. Young women are susceptible to "hive mind" more than young men who are famous for being such clear thinkers? Young women with opinions are clearly trying to compensate for not being pretty enough? Gross

Agree, WTF.

These are women with opinions. Agree or disagree, that is fine, but this is not "analysis" it's misogyny.
Exactly. I don't get how it's acceptable for other presumably women to dismiss others who disagree as being too stupid to know their own mind or doing it because they "lack something."
Women are INDIVIDUALS. We do not have to agree with everything, or that we're doing it for da man or whatever. or it is hard to restrain the decidedly un-feminist ‘those fucking traitor cowbag bitches’ thoughts

I mean, WT actual F.
Actual so called (presumably) women angry that other women aren't complying with them.
Beggars belief.

Cohle · 30/07/2019 17:39

"For women who don’t fit the IG beauty obsessed standards forced on young women today, there aren’t a lot of options online. A really attractive one which also appeals to our caretaking and socialization is“activism.”"

Ugly women become activists. Not a perspective I ever thought I'd see applauded on FWR.

nauticant · 30/07/2019 17:44

Young women are susceptible to "hive mind" more than young men who are famous for being such clear thinkers

In other words, WATM. You can set your clock by this stuff.

OldCrone · 30/07/2019 17:45

Young women with opinions

Here's what one of those young women has to say.

twitter.com/ScottishJenn_/status/1147519112207372288

Here's one of the replies to that tweet.
twitter.com/LanaLovage/status/1147759118293327873

So true Jenni, If a person sits down in a room with Nazis, they too are a Nazis. T£RFs are in bed with the right wing fash and American Christian Evangelists, they shout for the patriarchy -THEY ARE THE BADDIES!

How much thought have they given to forming their own opinions? They appear to be spouting ready made opinions about something they don't really understand.

This is a good thread about female trans allies
RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 17:50

Ugly women become activists. Not a perspective I ever thought I'd see applauded on FWR

Exactly, disgusting.
Well, I suppose I'm a trans ally.
I'm not young though.
So possibly it's just because I'm ugly and have no mind of my own? Confused Biscuit

soloula · 30/07/2019 17:51

Brilliant thread, thanks for posting.

TirisfalPumpkin · 30/07/2019 17:52

No, not 'ugly women become activists'.

Women who wanted to be treated like human beings who have value have very few options. If 'be treated well because attractiveness = value' is not an option, virtue signalling fake 'activism' might be.

It's not misogynistic to highlight how either of these routes might be attractive to women, or to look at what their motivations might be for behaving in such an apparently anti-woman way. It's either that or write them off as idiots or brainwashed, which IMO is true misogyny. I want to understand what's going on for them, and I will use whatever language I like (within forum rules) exploring that, and the frustration it causes.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 30/07/2019 17:54

Interesting thread and she makes a lot of good points.

One thing that I've noticed that connects all of us 'terfs' is that most of us have had some life experience that made us see the misogyny in society clearly and realise that women still have a vulnerable position in society.

For example, I experienced domestic abuse and at one point was told I might need to go in a refuge to be safe. The unfairness of that hit me so strongly, that I, the victim, was expected to go and hide whilst the abuser must be allowed to roam free. It hit me that society considers the rights and freedoms of abusers and rapists as more important than the actual LIVES of women and girls. Once you see something like that you can't unsee it. So many men even when convicted of abuse get short sentences and then are allowed out to terrorise their exes with no consequences.

I think a lot of those women attacking us have never had an experience like that so don't really appreciate things like female-only refuges.

The other group of women who seem to attack seem to be very privileged women who for different reasons, also have no current need for refuges and single sex spaces. Ie, their lives revolve around private clubs private parties, first class travel etc. They don't have to get the bus at night or or worry about weirdos in supermarket toilets, or navigate the world as a single mother.

So one group doesn't realise because of their age and life experiences, and the other group of women doesn't realise due to their wealth and privilege.

Most women fighting against this (although by far not all), who are known as terfs, seem to be middle aged normal working class and middle class women who have had some tough life experiences where they realised that women's rights are only recently won, still not fully won in many arenas, and that we are still very vulnerable to abuse, violence and discrimination due to a patriarchal society.

Lawlsie1976 · 30/07/2019 18:00

It's a wonderful thread.

Endofthedays · 30/07/2019 18:00

It’s to do with beauty standards not attractiveness.

Many women do not want to pursue the labour intense commercial beauty standard. The ones that do pursue it are not more attractive than the ones who don’t.

Nobody is calling those women ugly.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 30/07/2019 18:07

A perceptive thread, and one that reflects the findings of a recent(ish) US study that found 'social justice' activism more widely was deeply unpopular amongst all demographics bar white, well educated types.

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 18:10

I want to understand what's going on for them, and I will use whatever language I like (within forum rules) exploring that, and the frustration it causes.

What, like saying those who disagree are fucking traitor cowbag bitches and they're lacking and desperately unhappy just because they might not agree with you?

Even women like them.
Wow. OK.

Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 18:11

I wouldn't expect you to agree anyway Raindrops. Rant away.

OP posts:
Cohle · 30/07/2019 18:13

Why would a woman's attractiveness (or adherence to socially constructed beauty norms) have anything whatsoever to do with whether or not she engages in activism and, if so, the nature of that activism?

Michelleoftheresistance · 30/07/2019 18:14

What a great thread, really well explained.

And yes, totally agree, as a radical feminist these women matter like the women driven to rejecting womanhood and taking the label transmen matter. I've seen brave women here and in articles mention that they were given the lines to say, the script to follow, and repeated it until they started to think about it and reject it.

And yes, absolutely, to there being no teenaged males rushing in droves to defend the trans lobby. Like the envelope stuffers, the leafleters and door knockers, the tea makers for the political parties, the people handed the donkey work who go unnoticed and unrecognised? It's always women. Not the sparkly kind either.

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 18:14

I wouldn't expect you to agree anyway Raindrops. Rant away

Well, no, I wouldn't expect me to agree on this stance either as we have different opinions on this. Women are allowed to think for themselves.
Really interesting you dismiss what I'm saying with a "rant away" instead though.
Not ranting, just DISAGREEING with you.