This is a good thread about female trans allies

[Doyoumind]

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

thenavigator Do you think someone without "authentic feelings" could say they were trans? How would one ever know if another's feelings were authentic?

I do not support self ID as I think it is open to abuse, which leaves women and transwomen vulnerable.

Thanks for the reports about this thread. We've removed a couple of posts and hopefully things will get back on track.
Peace and love,
MNHQ

people born male can feel that they can only find their truth and live authentically by presenting as a woman

that's obviously completely fine. It would be pretty unfeminist to have an issue with that

it's males trying to access spaces and services set aside for women that's the problem. which I can see you (at least partly) agree on

TheNavigator

I think most GC women on here do think people should live their lives as they choose.

Most have fought against stereotypes for years, we want girls in STEM and boys to be more caring and kind! That is the opposite of TRA ideology though - which is based on it you like STEM, cars trains etc you are a boy. If you like dolls and pink you are a girl - change your body to suit.

Sex is a fact and personality something different entirely. Having a feminine personality as a male should be acceptable. Enjoying more masculine interests as a girl should be acceptable.

she didn't know whether to say sex or gender, for example. My 11yr old self did not have this problem.

For my 11 year old self, gender had to do with French lessons, knowing what "gender" a noun was, and, later, the same with Latin, and, much later, the same with German! It had nothing to do with people.

FormerMediocreMale I absolutely agree with your post, but for some people it is more than that. Trans people are not particularly recent, it is just the spotlight on the issue that is new. there are some people who feel they can only live in away that feels right for them by presenting as the opposite sex and I think you do not have to understand those feelings in order to respect them. Just because something doesn't make sense to you, that doesn't make it wrong - people do things that make no sense to be all the time, but I respect their right to live in a way that gives them their best hope for a happy and fulfilled life.

Thank you @MichaelMumsnet much appreciated.

Also, I'd be surprised if regular posters here blame young women for, in some cases, being obsessed with appearance

Good job we’re all individuals and not a hive mind eh?

Spot the contradiction? It's all regulars together until it doesn't suit.

there are some people who feel they can only live in away that feels right for them by presenting as the opposite sex and I think you do not have to understand those feelings in order to respect them.

It's not about respecting them, or not respecting them. It's analysing the reasons why they view the looks and expectations of the opposite sex to be something they're more comfortable with.

From a feminist perspective, it's analysing why people can't display their masculine/feminine traits, without asking society to assume they are that sex.

Treat me like a woman, indicates that women are treated in a certain way. And that needs analysis. I feel like a woman/thing like a woman, needs addressing.

There is also the matter of autogynephilia. It's incredibly sexist.

people born male can feel that they can only find their truth and live authentically by presenting as a woman

I don't really like 'find their truth' type waffle but do think it is notable that 'presenting as a woman' looks very different to a generation who grew up in the 70s/80s and a generation who grew/are growing up in the much more sexist stereotype divided 21st century.

To me it is impossible for a man to 'present as a woman'. I grew up with men wearing make up, flouncy shirts, bouffant hair. I don't consider men presenting in such a manner to be 'presenting as a woman'. I honestly find men in beards weirder than men in make up.

But it must look very different from the perspective of young people today when sexist stereotypes are far more rigid and so many people judge themselves by the photo-shopped standards of the internet which are impossible to uphold in the real world. No wonder so many young people feel inadequate and look for an escape.

I agree with that. There is a programme on TV at the moment called stranger things, about a bunch of girls and boys in the 70s or 80s?

Their clothes and hairstyles are virtually interchangeable.

there are some people who feel they can only live in away that feels right for them by presenting as the opposite sex and I think you do not have to understand those feelings in order to respect them

What does 'presenting as the opposite sex' even mean?

But there were trans people in the 70s and 80s, it is not new, it is just that there is more awareness and discussion. In the same way there have always been gay people, but they had to operate undercover.

Anyway, we are digressing from the thrust of the thread, which is that people, of all ages, can be supportive of trans without that meaning they are silly brainwashed girls desperate to fit in. The world is not that binary, so to speak, there are nuances of opinion that should be listened to and not brushed aside because they come from young women with interestingly coloured hair.

It’s all just about policing how women express themselves. Same shit different day. They bore the tits off me tbh

Their clothes and hairstyles are virtually interchangeable

Aye, I grew up wearing my older brother's hand me downs. It was considered normal.

I mean, sure, I had the odd party dress of my own, and school skirts because us girls weren't allowed to wear trousers (unless we were Muslim, how jealous I used to be of Muslim girls) but most day to day wear was passed on.

Thenavigator those two paragraphs conflict. And as much as, if you don't talk about the reason for transgenderism you can't understand why people support it or not.

In the 70, there were very few transsexuals around. Some of them cross dressers. Or a low number of men with gender dysphoria. Who will have been reacting against gender stereotypes. Such as they were. Women transsexuals were almost non-existent. And certainly teenagers.

Now, gender stereotypes are massive. Everything is a sea of pink or blue. And people simply can't remain unaffected by it.

The Internet is fuelling it. By both imposing impossible standards (Instagram, Facebook, selfies), and allowing people to form tribes of like-minded individuals, reinforcing what they think and say.

Reading the stories of detransitioners shows absolutely why youngsters are transitioning today. And where the pressure is coming from. And why people support it, until they don't.

It's not a neutral act. Youngsters are being medicated, operated on, left infertile and with no sex life. It's not neutral.

But there were trans people in the 70s and 80s

Not in the sense the phrase is used today.

There were transsexuals, who had actually had the chop and were not considered to be 'presenting as women' or women at all but a separate group in their own right. And there were transvestites who were known to get their sexual kicks from wearing women's underwear and older women advised us to avoid. But trans in the current sense of 'having an inner gendered soul that determines whether one is a man or a woman'? Nope.

I think transexuals believed they were presenting as women and living as women, at a time when it would be much harder to do so. Greater acceptance of humanity, it all its myriad variations, to me is a positive of the younger generation, not a negative.

The world is not that binary, so to speak, there are nuances of opinion that should be listened to and not brushed aside because they come from young women with interestingly coloured hair.

This is what @ScottishJenn had to say at about 3am yesterday.

Whether you like to admit it or not, gender critical organisations are funded by the far right. There are numerous 4chan and 8chan threads with men infiltrating the GC movement. You're prescribing to a movement funded and infiltrated by the far-right, that's what you're enabling and upholding.

That is not nuanced opinion, that is repeating some misinformation that someone has given her and she has swallowed whole and regurgitated. I just reread her first long post, and it is clear that she is not engaging at all with gender critical arguments, she is just repeating the same old anti-woman stuff that all the TRAs say.

TheNavigator

Have a read of this. And tell me if it's positive.

www.lifesitenews.com/news/ex-trans-man-wants-the-world-to-know-that-social-media-fuels-kids-decision-to-change-sex

On social media, Dagny found herself caught in a serious level of “group think,” “moral policing” and “implicit threats of social exposure and ostracization.” She became withdrawn, anxious and paranoid. Indoctrinated by “Tumblr,” she thought her parents were bigots because they wouldn’t allow her to start hormone therapy. She also earmarked anyone who “misgendered” her was an enemy, and she hated anyone who called her “she.” •

Dagny also believed that because she was trans, she was morally obligated to “transition,” and any hesitation on her part was down to internalized transphobia. This is why she believes it so important today that children with gender dysphoria hear the testimony of those who “detransition.”

“We’ve been absolutely inundated with one narrative, one option, one story, since this issue hit the mainstream,” she said.

“We’ve been given only one option, at the risk of unspeakable, devastating consequences: if a teen says she has gender dysphoria and wants to be a boy, then she should — must — be allowed to transition,” she continued.

I am not here to defend ScottishJen or anyone else, I just thought I would take a bit of time to explain that not being wholly in line with the FWR position on trans does not have to mean you are a silly, brainwashed young women. I thought the tweet was patronising and am surprised that feminists expressed support for it so as a feminist I thought I should share my non FWR board take on the matter.

Navigator I think there is a difference between supporting and accepting trans people and going around calling women terfs and fascists and claiming feminists are in bed with and funded by right wing evangelicals. That's where the problem arises.

That's great. But what do you think about the concept that youngsters today are being forced to transition, because of normal teenage angst, and restrictive gender boxes?

Sorry that was to navigator

This is how many people of "my" generation dressed. And so did I. Spot the men/women; yet nobody claimed to be the opposite sex it order to "express their true self".