This is a good thread about female trans allies

[Doyoumind]

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

gives me a visceral angry reaction and this is how I express it. In my head. I don't call them cowbag bitches to their faces or anything of the sort. I despise what they're doing and these are my feelings about it

I've trained myself mentally never to call a woman a bitch or a cow- even in my head.

That said- I read the Twitter feed of one of the young women who is also a Labour party activist. If she is the sort of person who has any sway or say in the Labour party then I'm praying to whichever deity I don't believe in that Labour never, ever, ever win another election. It's not particularly her TRA stance but the general , unthinking "anti- fash" tripe and a sense that she would not be much practical good at anything.

However I didn't particularly warm to this comment by Erin either White women are the easiest targets for hive mind ideologies Bit of a sweeping generalisation?

Bit of a sweeping generalisation?

Agree.

Though I also think there may be some merit to the concept too.

If you come from a specific cultural background you perhaps have a certain sense of identity (I note here second gen and third gen immigrants or mixed race individuals can feel torn between two identities and therefore not feel they belong).

But if you are white and boringly middle class you have no special sense of identity. You just 'are' and perhaps feel lost with a void of no identity.

In the past this was filled with band culture or fashion culture (think goths or britpop indie kids). What's currently going on is a push towards political culture as the dominent youth identity marker and that can be particularly toxic socially and might have some big ramifications in a way we haven't seen for generations.

Lass it is a huge generalisation. I suppose she's saying that potentially BAME women are oppressed in a way that could give them a cause to flight for. These white women don't (I don't think) see themselves as oppressed and so don't have a cause to automatically latch on to. That's how I interpreted it. I'm not sure if there is evidence for it but it's a theory.

*fight not flight

I agree with her.

I also feel that it's a consequence of patriarchy. Men who 'feel feminine' get short shrift from other men. These women get to 'protect' them from men (as they wish others would do for them), decide/ are told they're more privileged as they're 'cis' (triggering the mothering activism mentioned in the thread) and also get to hang out with more 'understanding cisters.'

It's the cuckoo effect.

I think some of it is grooming and some of it is the socialization of girls/women to be kind even when harmed by your own kindness.

I think some have been groomed to capitulate to adult men that "woman better than they do".

I also think some of it does have to do with self-image and desire to see yourself bigger than beauty standards AND KINDER. And more tolerant, and more accepting... and more willing to put yourself behind others if it raises them up. But they've lost the plot there IMO - you don't have to put yourself second to raise someone else up... you simply grab their hand and pull them up with you. Because be rest assured you put someone in front of you to raise them up, when the fire comes they'll pull you back in front as a human shield. I've experienced it firsthand (in my 20s) - it is incredibly painful/awakening to be so selfless for the betterment of another and then to be used as cannon fodder when they need a scapegoat. To have genuine kindness and the strength to hold to your principles is seen as weakness by those that look to take advantage. As I had an employer tell me once "you're quite the workaholic and we love it! We're just going to use you until there's nothing left - at least we'll get a lot done before you burn out".

We have young (middle, and elder) women holding up men as ideal women - as the most oppressed women. It's a very first world perspective on women as a class. Regardless of age it shows an inability to see women's oppression as a global issue. It is an insult to the women who risk their lives to carry water for their families, that are forced into marriage, or that sit in refuge and that have to beg for single-sex provision to escape rape/abuse. It is a message to women that suffer every day in every society that we are still choosing to put men's feelings above women's safety and autonomy.

The need to virtual signal, to be on the right side of history to encourage/incite violence against other women (see: die TERFs et al) is not enlightened or virtuous - it is shallow, short-sighted, and ugly beyond compare. Because sacrificing the class "woman" primarily for some men and for some individual women's benefit is inhumane to the balance of women.

They can tell me ad nauseam TWAW. But the fact of the matter is they don't really know what being a real woman is beyond their personal experiences and reality. The attempt to deny other women dignity/privacy and autonomy because they have not experienced their oppression (or are lucky enough to live somewhere oppression doesn't feel like what they think oppression is) with open eyes is immature and short-sighted regardless of their age.

They have the right to opt into second-class womanhood and I have the right (for now) to reject their objectives and narratives.

TW are TW and are separate and different from women - they need their own resources that cater to them and their bodies so their needs are met for their own safety and for their own health. Women need our own resources that cater to us and our bodies so our needs are met - surely considering that the world was designed by and for men we can retain spaces built for us even if not actually designed for us. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this beyond dogma and virtue signaling.

Lassit is a huge generalisation. I suppose she's saying that potentially BAME women are oppressed in a way that could give them a cause to flight for. These white women don't (I don't think) see themselves as oppressed and so don't have a cause to automatically latch on to. That's how I interpreted it. I'm not sure if there is evidence for it but it's a theory

I'm getting fed up of white, middle class women being blamed for everything. The comment made me think "oh look at her, she's so not like the other white women and does she want us to know it:

Feeling useful is good way to feel you have a place in the world.

Especially if you have actually suffered a bit from an aspect of the world. Championing a cause that's similar to what affected you is helpful.

It's just that modern 3rd wave feminism made everyone in the west (mainly white women) think women's rights were won. So you're not allowed to moan about any injustices as you have it so good now.

So they've transferred those inner feeling of something's not actually that great to the TWAW.

(Other women have become TM to escape.)

Thanks red. I always read what you say. I think you really think about what you write. Anyway thank you

not one person is going to explain why you are supporting a thread that basicly calls anyone who is not on your side stupid and shallow. that any woman who does not have your view point is like that? this as to be one of the least feminist threads I have ever read on this feminist board.

Just seen this thread and think it's reflective of what's been said here already. But from the inside.

Kitty @Exacerbati
1/ Trans ideology uses the double edged sword of female socialization’s compulsory sympathy & lifelong messages of subservience to males. When introduced to the idea that trans women are the most oppressed of all people and it was largely my fault as a cis lesbian, I bought it.

2/ I bought it with a 17 year old heart’s compassion’s & wide-open naiveté. The guilt I felt for not knowing, the horror I felt for these poor people’s plight, it was religious. I started looking on social media for more information. There were already guides of what to do.

3/ Manifesto after manifesto by trans women told me I needed to educate myself on dfab privilege, transmisogny, to not argue but simply listen if a TW condemned something you said as transmisogynistic & adjust your behavior accordingly.

4/ There were explicit calls for being as emotionally available for TW as possible, as they had the weakest support systems. Make sure there are enough TW in your friend groups. Make sure they are uplifted. & of course the emotional availability was a precursor to the sexual.

5/ I cannot overstate how clearly & repeatedly it was outlined that the ultimate act of political & feminist solidarity with a TW was making yourself secually available. Through interactions with sexual blogs. Sending nudes. Listening to sexual fantasies. Dating. Physical sex.

6/ Male people take advantage of women’s socialized sympathy. We know the term pity fuck. Cotton ceiling rhetoric is grooming, a liberal feminist guilt trip that targets young & impressionable female people. To use the fertile ground of a young person’s idealism & compassion

7/ for the seeds of sexual grooming, obsessive self-hate & self-monitoring, is unforgivable. A generation of young women (young lesbians especially) are suffocating in this farce of a revolution.

Power and control. Always power and control.

I think a lot of white people have been given a strong sense that they are responsible, as a class, for many social ills, and that they need to step up and be heard in order to make up for it. I participate on another board and this sort of thing is said quite explicitly by the left leaning members quite regularly. One way of speaking you hear a lot is that certain people who are not part of an oppressed group need to listen to what the oppressed people have to say and accept it, and then do what needs to be done to help. They must centre those other viewpoints and check their privilege.

I think this feeds into uncritically accepting all kinds of ideas. In fact it really extinguishes the critical faculties. As for women in particular, this is a group of women and I cannot say i have ever seen quite the same thing within a group of men. It's women policing other women, the odd man that shows up is far more likely to question the narrative.

I also think some of it does have to do with self-image and desire to see yourself bigger than beauty standards AND KINDER

Where does that leave me as an overweight, non make up wearing, could not give a shit what people think of me or any so called beauty standards 40 something?
I do me.

It's not all to do with "young uns wanting to please" or whatever.
I don't care about being kind if there's no reason to be. I care about what feels right from my point of view.
Where I'm comfortable.

not one person is going to explain why you are supporting a thread that basicly calls anyone who is not on your side stupid and shallow. that any woman who does not have your view point is like that? this as to be one of the least feminist threads I have ever read on this feminist board
Yeah, I mean WTF. Before anyone says, not just the OP tweet thang, much of the thread.
Women can disagree.
It doesn't make them bitches.
Or unable to know their own mind, patriarchy made em do it.
I find that sort of shit just as offensive as a man telling me what I should do.

Do you realise how absolutely mad you sound when you say those who support trans rights are in a cult? Can you not see how utterly absurd and untenable that position is?

And do you really think the anti-trans lobby are the only ones reading and researching and thinking critically? And if that is your position, do you ever wonder why you have to comfort yourself with the lie that only you understand the truth, and everyone who disagrees with you must be stupid, brainwashed or uneducated?

Are you really, truly, happy with the fact that you're making these misogynistic arguments because it's easier for you to attach women who support trans rights than it is to win the debate? Do you realise that when you try to make the argument that women who support trans rights are all brainwashed conformists who can't think critically, you're attacking a straw man? That you're failing to debate the ideas, and resorting to ad hominem attacks because you can't do any better?

You are allying yourself with patriarchy. You are perpetuating the myth that women (save the select few who have managed to rise above it, like you) are easily manipulated, led astray, brainwashed, unable to think critically, desperate for validation, emotional, irrational illogical. You are happily feeding into a narrative which has been used for centuries to deny women agency and autonomy. You can't accept that a woman has a different view to you. You have to explain that different view by pretending to yourself that she's just a silly, brainwashed cult devotee who would realise you were right if only she could think.

You are allying yourself with patriarchy. You are perpetuating the myth that women (save the select few who have managed to rise above it, like you) are easily manipulated, led astray, brainwashed, unable to think critically, desperate for validation, emotional, irrational illogical. You are happily feeding into a narrative which has been used for centuries to deny women agency and autonomy. You can't accept that a woman has a different view to you. You have to explain that different view by pretending to yourself that she's just a silly, brainwashed cult devotee who would realise you were right if only she could think.
YES to this. It doesn't mean women are brainwashed, or vulnerable, if they don't agree with every point made.
We have our own minds.
It doesn't mean we're too young, or not clever enough to know our own minds. I speak for ME. No-one else.

I'm not aligning myself with the patriarchy.

If I were young now I can easily see that I would be like them. I naively used to believe women had already achieved equality. I would have thought it right to fight for these rights for TW because I wouldn't have questioned anything and I would have thought I was being kind and fighting for the greater good.

With age and experience I have a very different view of the world.

My experience of women ties in with much of what has been said here. That's not me being misogynistic. That's a lazy criticism.

I also do me. I don't care what you do generally but I do dislike threads continually being derailed by the same few when there is useful debate to be had. I want debate but some people like to claim they are debating whilst just picking apart comments.

Do you realise how absolutely mad you sound when you say those who support trans rights are in a cult? Can you not see how utterly absurd and untenable that position is?

When you are being asked 'How many fingers Winston?' and then stated something different to what you can see and isn't being allowed to be discussed because there literally was a 'no debate' mantra, then yeah I'm pretty comfortable with the comparison with a cult.

Do you realise that when you try to make the argument that women who support trans rights are all brainwashed conformists who can't think critically, you're attacking a straw man? That you're failing to debate the ideas, and resorting to ad hominem attacks because you can't do any better?

Failing to debate the ideas? You mean the ones we weren't allowed to debate 'because transphobia'? Those ones?

You are allying yourself with patriarchy. You are perpetuating the myth that women (save the select few who have managed to rise above it, like you) are easily manipulated, led astray, brainwashed, unable to think critically, desperate for validation, emotional, irrational illogical. You are happily feeding into a narrative which has been used for centuries to deny women agency and autonomy. You can't accept that a woman has a different view to you. You have to explain that different view by pretending to yourself that she's just a silly, brainwashed cult devotee who would realise you were right if only she could think.

TBF I'm quite happy to apply it to a lot of men too. For example the ones who think that we shouldn't have ethics in medicine, especially where children are involved, and where they themselves are doctors.

shrugs

I also do me. I don't care what you do generally but I do dislike threads continually being derailed by the same few when there is useful debate to be had. I want debate but some people like to claim they are debating whilst just picking apart comments

Oh, get to fuck with that (don't care if that makes me sound too manly)
Why is it cries of derail again if you hear viewpoints you (general you) don't like?
Picking apart, ie having a question, amirite?
Actually try and debate with people with different viewpoints instead of just bollox like that.

What a strange comment to make about sounding manly. Swearing is permitted for all, not just one gender.

Youarewrong, just to clarify.

questioning why a thread attacks other woman for holding views deferent to your own on a feminist board is not derailing a thread it is part of the debate in the thread talking about cults in a thread not about cults is a derailment, but as it fits people's views then that of is fine. no one is going to justify why they are attacking other women other than they are just older so therefore know more about the world and if only the young ones would see that then they would understand.

Yikes. I've been agreeing with Redtoothbrush on this thread but the last post smacks of NAWALT.
Some do. Not all.

What a strange comment to make about sounding manly. Swearing is permitted for all, not just one gender.

Not really, when I've been told off for sounding too aggressive before and I must be a man, thought it best to say and pre-empt.

RosesAndRaindrops
At 18.14
Well, I wouldn't expect me to agree with this because we have different opinions./
Um, who are you expecting not to agree with? Yourself? Is there more than one person inside your head.
There are many points I understand here, there are also some posters that are deliberately misunderstanding the intention of the op
It's interesting as a semi lurker to see the different views.
The totally artificial fake lives that many aspire to are not achievable for all and can cause misery to those who know that they will never hit those shallow heights.
So to my mind they go looking for a place that they'll fit, they'll find their tribe if you see what I mean, at the moment it's transgenderism, it's cool and it's supportive of those who are different. Trans people are horribly oppressed and will literally die if you say anything unkind to them.
So the youngsters, those that invented youth as we all do at that time in our lives. Those young women are able to really feel that they've made a difference by standing up for trans people against those horrible turves