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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

This is a good thread about female trans allies

999 replies

Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 16:00

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 30/07/2019 22:22

I think a lot of white people have been given a strong sense that they are responsible, as a class, for many social ills

I think this is true and does explain a lot

LangCleg · 30/07/2019 22:22

Just seen this thread and think it's reflective of what's been said here already. But from the inside.

Yes. That's the one I posted upthread. But most of the detransitioners have similar threads and similar stories to tell.

I see the inability to conceive of a world view outside of hyper individualism hereabouts continues apace.

RedToothBrush · 30/07/2019 22:23

Ah. Sorry Lang.

Its been a long day.

Original poster
Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 22:24

Spiteful that's am interesting comment about deliberately misunderstanding because it's certainly not the first time it's been said.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 30/07/2019 22:25

I suppose she's saying that potentially BAME women are oppressed in a way that could give them a cause to flight for. These white women don't (I don't think) see themselves as oppressed and so don't have a cause to automatically latch on to. That's how I interpreted it.

Also me. She could equally have said bourgeois for white, because this is also a class issue.

LangCleg · 30/07/2019 22:25

Ah. Sorry Lang.

Eek! Not a dig! Soz lovey.

Bespin · 30/07/2019 22:26

for all the people who believed in somthing when they were younger did you not know your own mind when you beleived in it? Were you being lead or wanting to fit in and if so did that mean that what you beleived was wrong at all or did you still beleive it because you knew it was right and do you still beleive the things you did when you were younger?

Bespin · 30/07/2019 22:32

There appears to be a answer for every type of woman, who support trans people, if you are young its because you are lead or in a cult. if you are middle aged its because you support men and are an enabler. if you are a lesbian then you are bi. it does not appear to be because you know your own mind and can have your own individual view that is not infulanced by others or know your own truth if it is different to yours on here.

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 22:35

Um, who are you expecting not to agree with? Yourself? Is there more than one person inside your head.

Um, did you read my post? Read it back. Where did I say I was agreeing with myself?

I was having a different opinion. Never agreed with myself or had a person inside my head.
Can't be arsed to argue anymore than that.
If it wasn't for the lurkers I'd have fucked off and not given a shit ages before now.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 30/07/2019 22:36

She could equally have said bourgeois for white, because this is also a class issue.

The Goldsmiths effect?

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 22:38

There appears to be a answer for every type of woman, who support trans people, if you are young its because you are lead or in a cult. if you are middle aged its because you support men and are an enabler

Yep, sounds about right. I'm not young -unfortunately-- not in any cult so must mean I'm a middle aged support all men enabler and wanna be pleaser.
Dafuq lol

Original poster
Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 22:38

I can't really comment Bespin. I was very much my own person when I was younger (and am now) and being separate has always been more appealing than being in a group. I don't think I would have been drawn in by the pull of wanting to be part of something but I would probably have listened to the general narrative and gone along with it and not investigated further, which is what I believe often happens now. I wouldn't have claimed to be an expert if I hadn't done my research though. I would have been a quieter ally.

People often look back at their younger selves and disagree with their previous stances. That's extremely common. What's your point?

People who have left cults (as that is a comparison that has been made) say they felt they knew their minds at the time. It wouldn't really work if they were questioning would it? At that point they wouldn't be part of the cult anymore.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 30/07/2019 22:39

The Goldsmiths effect?

Pretty much! Wink

LangCleg · 30/07/2019 22:41

The thread is about dynamics in social groups and social pressures, not about individual women. Ho hum. None so blind as those who won't see.

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 22:46

None so blind as those who won't see

You fuckin said it. Couldn't agree more.

(Weird how we're agreeing on this but others you refuse to see)

Agrona · 30/07/2019 22:47

Red, once again I find your posts to be clear and concise without resorting to name calling.

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 22:48

I was very much my own person when I was younger (and am now) and being separate has always been more appealing than being in a group

Same.

Spitefulbreasts · 30/07/2019 22:50

Doyoumind
There's one poster that is making a meal out of misunderstanding, they always do.

RedToothBrush · 30/07/2019 22:50

for all the people who believed in somthing when they were younger did you not know your own mind when you beleived in it? Were you being lead or wanting to fit in and if so did that mean that what you beleived was wrong at all or did you still beleive it because you knew it was right and do you still beleive the things you did when you were younger?

What did I believe in when I was younger?

I wanted to change the world and make a difference. I saw journalism as a way to do that.

I don't think I've fundamentally changed my view on that. I have readjusted how I think I can achieve that, and I think I'm much more pragmatic about it based on realism rather idealism. I reflect a lot on the decline of quality journalism and the reasons for that. And I also think the world is a lot more complex than I did and that politicial shifts have had profound effects. I see a lot more barriers than than I did and I see that I was very very wrong about certain things, and turned blind eyes to things I shouldn't have. If anything I value those things MORE than I did, because I see how I took certain things which I thought solid and constant as much more vulnerable and fragile than I ever thought possible. I took my safety and security for granted.

As for fitting in. I spent a long time defending the behaviour of a group of friends to another group of friends and never feeling like I fitted in with either. I was a pretty unhappy person for it. When I stopped worrying about the rest of the world and what they thought of me, it was liberating and I was a lot happier.

Where would I be if I were 20 now? I'm pretty sure, I'd be spouting bullshit and trying to get my prescription.

For me thats the thing. I see ME 20 years ago reflected back at me. And thats why its so hard to watch play out tbh.

Idealism is the privilege of youth. Experience and wisdom is the gift of aging.

We need both to enable effective, well thought out and meaningful change ultimately. Change brought about without the later, is something of a car crash which brings a whole pile of unintended consequences and problems.

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 22:53

There's one poster that is making a meal out of misunderstanding, they always do

If that's to me, I don't care. I have my opinion.
You don't have to like it.

OldCrone · 30/07/2019 22:57

Do you realise how absolutely mad you sound when you say those who support trans rights are in a cult?

There seems to be a misconception here that those of us who support women's rights are somehow 'anti-trans' and don't support trans rights. I support the right of everyone, including trans people, to have the same human rights.

The 'cult' aspect is more to do with having a belief that people can change sex, and that men who identify as women are actually women (simply because they say they are). I simply don't understand how any intelligent person can actually believe this, so there must be some other explanation for why people repeat things like 'transwomen are women'. Being brainwashed by a cult is one explanation. If there is another one, please enlighten me.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 30/07/2019 22:58

That's a lovely post Red.
It's hard to look back at my younger self - so full of self confidence and yet missing some points spectacularly! I'm much more tolerant now - and becoming a parent was a massive wake up call. It's very humbling to discover that all those certainties you have when young prove to be not quite as certain or clear as you originally thought.

Original poster
Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 23:00

I would say your identity is to be the rebel then Roses. Are you vocal on these subjects away from MN? It's a genuine question.

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Endofthedays · 30/07/2019 23:04

I’m pretty confident I would be trans if I were young now.

Part of it would be the psychological need to escape misogyny. I can remember the feeling of loathing my own body and women’s underwear because of how I was treated.

Part of it would be the common experience of being young, looking around at the state of the world, thinking why is this happening, it must be because mainstream society is bad, and so the counter culture must know better than mainstream society.

That’s what I thought as a young person, and of course then you’ve made the counter culture sacred and so are not on the look out for predators.

And you think mainstream people are evil fascists. And you’re not.

But where the line is that you don’t cross, that is created by strong identity. And there is a sizeable minority of white middle class people who are brought up with no real identity. Their parents are pick your own religion, cultural interests, politics etc. When you meet them as adults, they really want you to exactly match their political opinions and very vague pick and mix cultural knowledge because they are massively insecure about who they are and scared of everyone, scared in a way that tips over into hate. Because they’re not really anyone, and those people cross the lines you are not supposed to cross, very, very easily.

Goosefoot · 30/07/2019 23:13

I think it is a good idea to be careful about comparing people to those taken in by a cult, it can be dismissive.

It's also the case that people are taken in by cults and various groups do use techniques to try and manipulate people's thinking. And it works. Even advertising is an example.