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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

This is a good thread about female trans allies

999 replies

Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 16:00

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Endofthedays · 30/07/2019 23:22

We also don’t have a good understanding yet of what is happening to people’s psychology yet as a consequence of the internet, so we end up trying to find points of comparison like cults which don’t really explain it.

popehilarious · 30/07/2019 23:33

So many comments on here (deliberately?) misinterpreting a very specific group with a specific viewpoint and the specific way it is presented (described in the Twitter thread in the OP) as "anyone who disagrees with you".

Why? Why do people argue so badly?

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 23:38

Why? Why do people argue so badly?

No idea.
If it involves women saying that other women don't know any better that they're stupid, or brainwashed, or it's the patriarchy's fault that they think the way they do....
you bet your ass you're (general you) going to get people disagreeing with you.

OldCrone · 30/07/2019 23:40

Roses
Why do people believe that people can change sex? Why do they believe that a man is a woman if he says he is? If they haven't been brainwashed, why do they believe this?

OldCrone · 30/07/2019 23:41

Or is it that they don't actually believe these things, but they repeat them anyway? Why would they do that?

popehilarious · 30/07/2019 23:48

roses it is you who keeps mischaracterising the group in question as "anyone who disagrees with you". At least you're honest about not knowing why you do this but if you can't understand that you are talking about a different set of people than the op then your contributions aren't going to be accurate, are they?

RosesAndRaindrops · 30/07/2019 23:55

Why do people believe that people can change sex? Why do they believe that a man is a woman if he says he is? If they haven't been brainwashed, why do they believe this

What the fuck has that got to do with whether you're a "brainwashed woman" or vulnerable or not though.
I can know my own mind.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 00:08

Asking why people believe others can change sex has NOTHING TO DO with the thread.
I for one have never stated that men can biologically change sex.
Never. As they can't biologically change sex. They'll still be biologically male. Why can't transwomen be accepted as transwomen though?

Why do people believe that people can change sex?

Why would you "change sex" just on a whim?

Before Bunce gets wheeled out at me, as alternates apparently, I can't start to understand mindset there as I'm obviously not Bunce.
I don't think you can change sex. You can't biologically.
Why can you not be a transwoman though and seen as one.
expects Karen White to be thrown out as this is what transwomen are next

2BthatUnnoticed · 31/07/2019 00:14

Very insightful thread.

Some women may never have felt the need for female spaces - they have never had to live in Refuge or prison, never run a small business from home like the women in Canada.

They don’t realise how predatory males are exploiting the trans situation to abuse vulnerable women in those situations.

Hence to them, eradicating female spaces doesn’t harm women. Women who want to keep those spaces become the enemy.

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 00:16

If you don’t believe people can change sex, then it doesn’t apply to you.

But clearly there are people who do believe that, and I’m struggling to think of anything crazier - lizard people?

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 00:18

Women who want to keep those spaces become the enemy.

Other women who have different experiences become the enemy.
OK.
So much for women are all oppressed, don't know what to think as they've been brainwashed by men.
Now they're the enemy.
NO, we're all women.

OldCrone · 31/07/2019 00:22

You're starting to sound like a fully paid up transphobe, roses. 'TW are TW', 'people can't change sex',...You must have been spending too much time on here.

Asking why people believe others can change sex has NOTHING TO DO with the thread.

I thought it was the whole point of the thread. The way some young women are true believers in TWAW, and why they believe that.

OldCrone · 31/07/2019 00:27

Hence to them, eradicating female spaces doesn’t harm women. Women who want to keep those spaces become the enemy.

Are they really so convinced that men who identify as women are the most oppressed group, that they can't see the vulnerability of some actual women?

Maniak · 31/07/2019 00:37

@oldcrone, in the twitter thread the only evidence about these trans allies was their profile pics (young, white) and the fact that they put up pronouns. The rest was entirely speculation about their motives (needy, easily led). There was little to no evidence about their actual opinions.

So, of course feel free to make up opinions that they might have and then we can all agree how stupid those made up opinions are. But I think Rose is right. Most trans allies I've spoken to (all of them long term feminists) don't think people can change sex or even understand why they would want to.

It's like if someone put up photos of old women and picked one outrageous opinion and ascribed it to all gender critical feminists and then sat around speculating why old women are so crazy. It's just nothing.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 00:45

You're starting to sound like a fully paid up transphobe, roses. 'TW are TW', 'people can't change sex',...You must have been spending too much time on here.

WTAF are you on about now., sorry. TW are TW. Makes you a transphobe? Confused

Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 00:47

Gender critical feminists are not, in general, old women.

I would assume that very many are middle aged. There are similarities as to why we are the way we are - seventies childhood when gender stereotyping was much rarer, teens before plastic surgery became commonplace, last generation to go through school before science teaching became compulsory to sixteen and girls still had to stand out to get science qualifications, strong focus on boundaries, grass roots organising.

2BthatUnnoticed · 31/07/2019 00:55

Roses I am a woman who wants to retain the female spaces my foremothers fought so hard for. With other spaces dedicated to TW.

So the women Erin is talking about would see me as the enemy, I understand. That is what I meant.

Also, this perception that GC women are all white is racist and wrong. I’m not white, plenty of us are not, stop erasing us.

sakura184 · 31/07/2019 01:01

Do you realise how absolutely mad you sound when you say those who support trans rights are in a cult? Can you not see how utterly absurd and untenable that position is?

Trans ideology and activism actually fits all the classic definitions of a cult, for example love bombing when you first join, faith based belief (no concrete evidence for its claims) and excommunication if you manage to leave

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 01:04

I’m not white, plenty of us are not, stop erasing us

I'm not erasing anyone who isn't white, how the hell would I know who is or isn't white on here?!
I'm going from what I'm reading.

2BthatUnnoticed · 31/07/2019 01:12

Roses sorry someone said the usual “GC feminists are all white, middle-aged, blah blah” but it sounds like it wasn’t you, apologies.

OldCrone · 31/07/2019 01:13

Here you are, @Maniak, take a look at one of the twitter feeds for yourself.

twitter.com/scottishjenn_?lang=en

I posted some of this earlier in the thread, but you can read as much as you want (you could have found it for yourself, like I did, of course). I don't know why you thought I was 'making up opinions' (especially as I posted screenshots and links). Confused

Anyway, Jenn has posted loads of this thread on twitter, so no doubt she's reading this, and she can tell us all whether she thinks that transwomen are women, and whether she believes that people can change sex. I'd be surprised if she didn't chant the TWAW mantra, since she accused Emma Burnell of transphobia for retweeting this:

twitter.com/hstanley_/status/1155367753538244610

Emma was subsequently forced to recant and say TWAW.

Jenn does need a dictionary though, because she thinks that suggesting that she might have been influenced rather than forming her own opinions is 'misogyny'.

BickerinBrattle · 31/07/2019 01:13

Witness what happened to Emma Burnell, after she retweeted a “wrongthink” tweet suggesting women who’d been banned from Twitter shouldn’t be banned when men weren’t banned for stating the same supposedly “wrongthink”: she was asked, in a threatening manner, by Open Labour, after they’d apologized FOR her, “Emma, do you believe transwomen are women?”

And she answered, “Yes, of course.”

Most dutifully. And so was, for now, forgiven her lapse.

No gulag, as Goldsmith’s suggested was the appropriate punishment for “wrongthinkers” for her, at least not yet.

No similarities to a cult? Okay, if not to a cult, then to Maoism?

And should I, who is of the age to have, and in fact did, participate in marching for, fundraising for, agitating for, and creating female-only refuges and female-only support programmes, NOT feel angry watching younger women, hand those over with both hands to males?

Why should I NOT feel angry when younger women, who know nothing of the Second Wave, as evidenced by their complete unfamiliarity with Second Wave history, literature, or thought, make all sorts of disparaging and dismissive comments about older feminists — from platforms they wouldn’t have were it not for what WE fought for — and then open up refuges, crisis centres, sport, awards, even language around our on bodies — to males who, while claiming oppression, make the exact same demands upon women that required the Second Wave fight in the first place?

I teach younger women. One of the lessons requires that they make a clear statement of want. It is shocking how many cannot do it. They cannot say, “I want ...” and fill in the blank with something they want for themselves. Though they can do it for other people. “I want John or Mary to have...” is something they can speak.

When we discuss this, what comes forth is that they do not feel entitled to want something for themselves. It feels to them that they are crossing into forbidden territory, even to formulate a meaningful want of their own beyond trivial wants for chocolate, a day off work, etc.

This is female masochism, something Freud though was innate to women. It’s not. Not every woman experiences it, but for those who do, it can take decades to unlearn. And while enmeshed in it, it can be infuriating to observe women who aren’t.

For women I know who are Butler devotees, this is what Butler’s notion of gender as performance gave them: the chance to act as if they hadn’t been socialised female, and in that performance, unlearn female masochism. Faking it till they could make it. Individually, of course, and to greater or lesser extent, because Butler was never about women as a class.

It’s striking to me, though, that young female adherents of genderist thought are now doing the exact opposite — just as female socialisation requires, their performance of gender is in service of others — males — and not of themselves.

This is of course what power does: it takes what was a revolutionary threat to it and flips it inside out. Liberalism becomes neoliberalism. Unions become management. Deconstruction of gender becomes the enforcement of gender. Feminism becomes male-centrist.

While whatever will soon be revolutionary is germinating.

Doyoumind · 31/07/2019 01:17

Not sure if you spend time on Twitter Roses but if you go there saying TW are TW you will get piled on and accused of being a transphobe very quickly. And likely by the women this thread was originally about.

Maniak the thread wasn't about those specific women. It was about the kind of women in general the poster thought they might represent.

OP posts:
Endofthedays · 31/07/2019 01:21

Really interesting post Bickerin.

OldCrone · 31/07/2019 01:23

the thread wasn't about those specific women. It was about the kind of women in general the poster thought they might represent.

I thought it was worth having a look at what some of those women were saying, though - so that I didn't need to speculate.

Here's Jenn's tweet about Emma's transgression.

This is a good thread about female trans allies