This is a good thread about female trans allies

[Doyoumind]

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

Actual so called (presumably) women angry that other women aren't complying with them.

Well, quite, RosesAndRaindrops. Why do you think these young women are so angry with those of us that they call 'T*s'? Why do you think they are so unwilling to listen to anything we have to say?

Why would a woman's attractiveness (or adherence to socially constructed beauty norms) have anything whatsoever to do with whether or not she engages in activism and, if so, the nature of that activism?

Exactly @Cohle, what the hell a woman's looks has to do with anything is anyone's guess.

Actual so called (presumably) women angry that other women aren't complying with them.Well, quite, RosesAndRaindrops. Why do you think these young women are so angry with those of us that they call 'T*s'?

You're missing what I'm saying.
Which was GC people saying "traitor cowbag bitches" and "women like them" to women disagreeing with you.
Did I say it was OK to get angry with other women and call them T*s?
No I didn't. I don't like that word either, but way to go with your presumptions eh.

Agree End . Nothing to do with attractiveness, everything to do with the many women who reject or feel alienated by the social media world of commercial female beautification/ fashion sold as being the be all and end all of womanhood. Some of whom feel so alienated by it and its rigid definitions and demands and male driven expectations that they try to identify out of being the sex encumbered by it. Female authors have been trying for centuries now to express that there is more than this to being a woman, and how empty it is. The sad part is that these are women who want to do, to help, who care, and haven't yet realised the agenda they are helping is actively oppressing them and seeking the furtherment of that oppression.

Did I say it was OK to get angry with other women and call them T*s?
No I didn't.

So do you have any answers to my questions?

Such an interesting thread and well worth considering the issues that she raises. I suppose that's why the trans lobby groups relentlessly targets universities and schools. It's always been a puzzle how so many white middle aged men have managed to position themselves at the very top of the oppression 'hierarchy' - evidently persuading the young that this is where they belong is remarkably effective.

Yeah, I don't think she means young women who aren't 'pretty enough'. No one fits the 'IG beauty obsessed standards' because they are artificial and unrealistic. And I suspect that is driving a lot of young women to become trans activists.
Call it projection or empathy, I think on some level they relate to men who try to perform femininity, because these women have grown up with the pressures of social media, unrealistic beauty standards, the rise of cosmetic surgery, etc. etc. I have a lot of sympathy for these women, as misguided as I think they are. I reserve my ire for older women TRAs like Sally Hines who really should know better, having grown up in a time when being gender-nonconforming didn't mean actually identifying as the opposite sex.

When I was a teenager, there was a definite divide between girls who attempted to meet the beauty standard and girls who were interested in activism.

I would say the same is the case for DD now.

It’s why I’ve put focus on having boundaries, because I want her to be able to make a distinction between activism and that woman as carer that so much activism ends up pushing women towards.

It’s really important that we recognise that when we avoid certain forms of femininity, it is easy to end up trapped in another.

Roses you have clearly expressed your opinion on the thread. That's fine and I respect you have an opinion that is different but again you are dissecting what other posters say. It's not a useful approach imho.

It feels like you just want to start an argument with people you already know won't agree. No problem stating your opinion. It just doesn't need to be repeated and repeated although it seems to be your MO.

And yes Michelleoftheresistance - these are caring young people and to see them diverted to support such a toxic ideology is so sad.

It’s really important that we recognise that when we avoid certain forms of femininity, it is easy to end up trapped in another.

I've often thought the trans ideology can often read as an attempt at pushing women into codependent relationships with trans people. Something women have for decades being working to recognise and escape as a dynamic in domestic relationships, particularly ones that have become abusive.

RosesAndRaindrops

I really would like to know why you think these young women are so angry, and why older women/lesbians/feminists are the targets of their vitriol rather than men, for example. Do you really think this is their considered opinion that they are acting on, having researched and discussed and reflected? Or do you think they are being manipulated by others, who are likely to be older and more powerful and predominantly male?

Its focusing on women's insecurities and using them against them in a very sinister way.

Interesting and I think spot on unfortunately

but again you are dissecting what other posters say. It's not a useful approach imho

So I'm not allowed to question anyone else's view?
If someone thinks women who don't agree with them are cowbag bitches I'm going to question that, are we all supposed to just say our piece, then shut up?
Or you can quote another poster but only if it's to wholeheartedly agree with them?
Um, yeah that's not how a discussion works.
Echo chamber, yes.
No so much a debate if you can't question anything and have to agree or shush,

Focussing on insecurities is a good way of seeing this Red. And yes, like so much at the moment, it is sinister.

I can't say it really rang true to me.

I think she is right that white women seem particularly drawn into this. Or it seems that way to me but then I'm not sure what would be reflective of the population. I can think of a few reasons that might be.

But the idea that it is easier because you just need some phrases? No, because I see just the same thing in other forms of activism, where people use a few stock phrases and slurs to shut down people that offer a different perspective, much less challenge their orthodoxies in any significant way.

This has made me think of this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3650946-Labour-hilarious-again-on-Twitter

I noticed how many women, as well as calling out the bullying that Emma B received, reminded her that she didn't have to apologise and unpicked the tactics that were being used to bully her. Many of the posts empathised with her position. It was interesting reading and I wondered what the impact on her was.

I really would like to know why you think these young women are so angry, and why older women/lesbians/feminists are the targets

I don't know. I don't know why other women get angry at other women if they don't "think right."
Whether it be GC thinking those who disagree with them are bitches, or the young trans allies mentioned in the tweets getting angry and calling older women T**F.
It's coming from both sides, and women should be able to think for themselves without being dismissed as being too stupid or under the thumb or whatever to know what they're on about.

Meh. Seems like a lot of supposition and tribal nonsense to me, I'm afraid.

And I'm with you on this, Roses. We don't need to put women into neat boxes labelled 'terf' or 'handmaiden' and ascribe motivations to them based on those labels.

We can disagree rationally and discuss it like adults, surely.

I think it's a brilliant thread.

For those not understanding the connection with beauty, have you been on TikTok? It's actually profoundly depressing. If you are extremely physically beautiful and feminine and particularly if you take the time to perfect your make-up (which clearly takes ages) then there is the potential for young women to have hundreds of thousands to millions of followers. It's the same on IG. Being beautiful unfortunately gives teenagers more status and currency than anything else in 2019. I went on to have a look and on the one hand it's lovely seeing all these teenagers finding their confidence and expressing themselves but such a tiny proportion of people are going to stand out in that environment. It's fiercely competitive. I'm a grown adult and five minutes of scrolling made me feel like a hideous, dishevelled mess. Don't underestimate the pressures on young women who spend a significant proportion of their lives on social media. It very much can feel that if you aren't pretty, you're nothing. Of course people then turn to activism and alternative sub-cultures to find some power for themselves. You see it with people turning to cosplay and video games or in the communities where people consider you to have currency if you have a mental health condition or you're trans yourself. The internet is doing a lot of harm, wonderful as it can also be. I would hate to be 15 in today's climate.

It's coming from both sides, and women should be able to think for themselves without being dismissed as being too stupid or under the thumb or whatever to know what they're on about.

It's like it has to become personal. And as un PC as it sounds this seems to be a bigger problem for women than men. We can't just discuss ideas like adults.
I really despise the term handmaidens. People shouldn't be called names for doing what they think is right, even if they are wrong. And expecting people to always side with their own sex, I don't see how that is different than any other tribalism or nationalism. We can all be wrong, really misguided, at times.

And I'm with you on this, Roses. We don't need to put women into neat boxes labelled 'terf' or 'handmaiden' and ascribe motivations to them based on those labels.
Exactly, everyone's entitled to their opinion

We can disagree rationally and discuss it like adults, surely
You'd think

I understand the, suggested, link to beauty just fine - women who can't or choose not to find value in their appearance are forced to find their value elsewhere. (Although quite why it follows that that place is TRA rather than education or careers or hobbies or GC feminism does escape me)

I just find it depressing that women are using appearance and gendered stereotypes to criticise women who disagree with them. Argue with TRA's based on their beliefs and ideology, not by patronisingly explaining that they only think this way because of their insecurities.

I really despise the term handmaidens. People shouldn't be called names for doing what they think is right, even if they are wrong. And expecting people to always side with their own sex, I don't see how that is different than any other tribalism or nationalism

Completely agree.
The expecting to agree with someone of the same sex, regardless of whatever the hell they're saying, just because they're a woman, I'm not up for that.
I've been told I'm not very sisterly for disagreeing with someone before (can't remember the exact topic) and was like
why do I have to agree withe everything another female says just because I'm female?
If they're being an arse I'll say so.
Just like I would if a male was being one.
Not blind "Sistas Together!" mentality regardless.
The constant from some patronising or dismissing as too silly to know their own mind is nauseating when it comes from other women.

I agree Floomph. My observation is that as soon as you join with the trans ideology whether you are trans or an ally immediately everyone is 'affectionate' and caring towards you and tells you you are amazing and beautiful no matter who you are. That must be quite a pull.

The overly affectionate language used seems to me to be so gushing and, frankly, fake. It reminds me very much of how the in crowd would speak to each other when I was at school a long time ago. I suppose it's the language influencers and their followers use but I don't really have any time for them. It feels like a thing of youth. That's just my take on it.