Peak Transing

[Apollo440]

This thread on AIBU has been joined by some aggressive TRAs who are doing sterling work peak transing the more delicate areas of mumsnet.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3634784-to-not-want-to-sign-off-my-emails-with-preferred-pronouns

Real TWAW No debate or your c*nts type. Carry on I say!

& more importantly what the ever living FUCK do you imagine it matters that you are ok with wang in the changing room, if other women are not?!

How can you justify holding a door open & saying 'well, I'm fine with men in here. Shut up, fellow women, you have no right to your own space'

Campaign for open or third spaces, by all means.

1. Female space (to include small boys with their mums). The old school transsexuals who say they have used these spaces for 20 years would keep doing so (since they apparently blend right in, nobody would even know

Any objections?
No.

1. Gender neutral space - everyone else, including all the self-described “cis” women who want to share with their trans and NB siblings. TW like Danielle*

Why would I be bothered? Sorry if I'm missing something but what has Danielle supposed to have done I've just googled before anyone asks.Not sure who JY is.

Why is it so difficult to understand that women are saying NO to men in our spaces, on behalf of women and children, because of women's knowledge of safety, dignity and privacy?

You can easily see through the gaps on the sides as well as under the door
OK, that's crap then I agree but that's not how it is in the UK. Cubicles are cordoned off. No room to try and stick your head under the door if that's what you're insinuating some might try to do.
There's no sides either.It's a door to a cubicle. No gaps anywhere.

We have rattled the TRAs. They couldn't shut us down with the usual shrill cries of transphobia and #nodebate. Then they tried to feign being feminists and claim that 'real' feminists didn't agree with us and that ours was a minority view. Still the GC movement has grown and we are managing to get consultations re-visited. The latest attempts to belittle our viewpoint by misrepresenting it will fail too. 'I used to be GC but you are so mean I worry for your mental health' is laughable. Once you have engaged your critical faculties and the scales have dropped, there is no going back. I have debated this issue face to face with 6 people so far (including 2 school governors) and believe me, they will not be buying what TRA's are selling. The tactic of trying to control our language will fail too. It only results in more questions and as continually demonstrated, they don't do questions. But make no mistake the days #nodebate are over. The days of closing down venues are over. They days of sneaking through legislation are over. Hopefully we will soon start to challenge the misrepresentation of the equalities act to schools and public bodies, protecting Women's and girls sports and most importantly teaching children that they are fine as they are without surgery or drugs and it is restricting gender stereotypes that need to go.

.It'soor to a cubicle.
Should read door to a cubicle or floor to a cubicle, equally valid

You could look at the current thread on JY, Roses.

If you are genuinely that out of the loop.

(Danielle is Danielle Muscato btw. I would say google, but I imagine that's a bit onerous for you).

Roses do you think self-described “cis” women would be happy using a gender neutral space alongside their trans siblings? “Cis” men seem strongly supportive of TW so surely they would support turning the Gents into “gender neutral.”

Then, the women who want sex segregation can keep it. As I understand it, transwomen reject the “third space solution” as it invalidates their identity. But if all their cis women sisters joined them in “gender neutral” space this won’t apply.

(By “Cis,” I mean women who expressly identify that way... not the rest of us who reject that binary.)

RosesAndRainDrops that’s not how it is in the UK, give over now. I live in the USA but was born and bred In the UK and visit at least once a year. Fully enclosed floor to ceiling cubicles are the bloody exception rather than the norm. Most changing rooms in shops are curtained cubicles, some have flimsy lockable doors but with huge gaps at floor level and also at just above head height level, same with many public bathrooms.

And anyway according to TRAs and allies at UCLA floor to ceiling partitions and doors are a no go anyway. Don’t you know how othering and hurtful that is to TW? Totally transphobic apparently, I’m not making this up.

Here you go Roses, I saved you the googling.

Now, I know these are all TW (she/her pronouns please!) who use female spaces.

But how does a random women or girl in that space know? Genuine question.

Surely anyone who was born and raised female can understand the concern - even if they don’t share it for themselves personally?

I can't even go here right now I am so fucking angry.
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4369636/The-London-lawyer-s-changed-gender-THREE-times.html?fbclid=IwAR289R8VhPEAqABjJgk66xW9FkqxmWWgtF9KsawlGmFxB6UjU3lcqnnPKCs

Roses

I am not sure why you are having a hard time finding out about JY since this thread is on the front of FWR: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3632380-Fascinating-tweets-about-JY-s-waxing-case-Read-here-Thread-title-edited-by-MNHQ

Feminist I asked about JY yesterday and I even summarised the case to save the arduous task of reading a whole thread
Both Early and Roses had no comment because it had nothing to do with this threads point you see, which is all about the 'horrible' term peak-trans.
As you can see, we totally stayed on point

GodDamitAmy that story deserves its on thread.... I actually copied a few paras that wound me up, then realised I'd end up copying the entire story.

It's so bad, it'll be on par with the peak-trans Sherpa skills of RMcK

own not on

Both Early and Roses had no comment because it had nothing to do with this threads point you see, which is all about the 'horrible' term peak-trans.
As you can see, we totally stayed on point

Sorry to rerail here, but I'm totally fine with the term "peak-trans," because it describes so well my own experience, which was going from not having giving the topic much thought for most of my life, to being open to accepting transwomen as women. For a while, I was trying to train my brain to avoid "misgendering" even in my thoughts, "correcting" myself when thinking about trans public figures. But it was taking a closer look at genderist ideology, and the plentiful examples of its defenders, such as on display here on this thread, that peaked me, not the arguments of the GC set. But it was the arguments made by the GC feminists that made it clear to me what the the threats are, and what's at stake if we don't resist.

I left to go out 20 pages ago and am a bit disappointed that apart from cookie above, no one really responded to the point we were trying To discuss? I’ll ask again:

why would you continue using ‘peak trans’ as opposed to peak transactivism or similar? Peak trans insinuates the trans population and not individuals. It’s an offensive term. So far most people that replied earlier said that they wouldn’t use ‘peak muslim’ But would use ‘peak islam’ so whether they realise or not, have actually backed up my point. GC feminists are obsessed with how important language is, why does it not apply within your own narrative?

It’s lost in the mists now, earlywalker, but I did respond to that and asked you what difference that would actually make, if any? What do you think of the actual substantive point of describing the peak, rather than the word?

Asked and answered. It's a contraction. I have 4,567,972,264,301 PMs agreeing with me about this.

I highly doubt many of the contributors to the thread will mind that the term peak trans is offensive.

As to whether people are put off from posting on FWR because of this issue, of course they are. Not only have there been numerous threads over the last few years saying so. Including a few just wanting to hide FWR from their MN feed entirely. But also, for those of who have been here since this were all fields, we remember the time when FWR was a place pretty much anyone could come into and learn about things that were nothing to do with trans people. We used to rarely even see a post about it. It was actually about feminism.

I think that whilst there is constant enforcement of how important language is, why should GC feminists use such blanket terms like that without actually thinking about what they are saying?

Trans people are a minority group, just like Muslims or lesbians, if the terms ‘peak lesbian’ was being used by TRA’s, I would have a huge issue with it.

I understand you believe the ideology is harmful, it’s completely your right to discuss it etc but I think the terms used cannot be brushed under the carpet, or deemed acceptable because ‘the in-group know what we mean’

It’s not the first time it’s been said but it seems in GC land you want complete control and enforcement over who can use this word and what can be said about woman, but are not willing to really address your own language and what you are actually saying.

The issue was thrown into sharp relief for me when I took my son to a swimming pool I haven't been to since I was a child. No changing village. No family change. Due to his age he has to go in the men's alone. This is a first for us. I had forgotten that at this pool the "cubicles" are open fronted, no doors or curtains, and the walls come up to about shoulder height. No privacy.

Now I know my brother sometimes takes his two little girls to this pool. As with my son, they are just old enough to need to go, without their parent, into a changing area with no privacy.

For me, it's not the case that I'm fine with it so long as I'm not actually attacked. I'm not fine with someone getting off on wandering up and down and getting an eyeful of my private bits, or the private bits of my child or anyone else's child.

I don't believe in the existence of anyone who doesn't believe in the existence of men who get off on an eyeful of naked body without consent, or child's naked body, or taking advantage of vulnerability.

Did anyone have a source for the thing I read somewhere which said that whilst onky 50% of uk changing facilities were unisex , they’d had 90% of sexual assault reports? Would it be in the thead things that never happen or break it down for me?

If this is true, would rose change her opinion on unisex facilities?

If not, at what levels of sexual assault would Rose consider unacceptable and indicative of a need for single sex spaces?