I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

[TalkingAboutPride]

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

and I'm loving the idea that anyone is unreasonable for thinking that gay people might emphasise their sexuality at Pride. Yanno, wear a t-shirt, hold hands with their boyfriend / girlfriend, hold a banner

the OP saw lots of people with strong feelings about sexual stereotypes doing the above, but not many lesbians. it's not a hard concept to grasp.

and I'm loving the idea that anyone is unreasonable for thinking that gay people might emphasise their sexuality at Pride. Yanno, wear a t-shirt, hold hands with their boyfriend / girlfriend, hold a banner

Of course they might do that. But then again they might not. I just don't think that you can conclude that anyone not wearing a t shirt or holding hands is straight, which is what seems to be the message here.

My dd was in a group of 4 - 2 men, 2 women - with a range of sexualities within the group but none of them are dating so they wouldn't be holding hands or kissing each other so they wouldn't have appeared as gay, lesbian, bi or straight to an on looker. How many other people there were like this? Other posters have already said that they were there and weren't presenting as being lesbian so I don't see how anyone can draw conclusions based on the OPs observations.

Your favourite unreliable witness here - oh how I wish for an edit button so I could clarify that what I meant in my tired and hungover original post was visibly making some kind of statement, with clothing, signs and symbols, and/or physical actions related to their sexuality such as hand holding and kissing lesbian, bi and gay young people.

It seems the court I didn't know I was in is divided into people who understood that was what I meant and people who didn't. I live and learn by the jury of mumsnet

This pride was noticeably different, to me, to others that I have been to, in that I saw less young people making visible declarations of their sexuality than I saw at previous pride events that I have been to.

That is all, your honour.

Thanks for this thread, Talking. It’s really interesting to hear your impressions of the day.

and thanks to the derailers. I'm pleased that this thread is keeping up in active. it's good for people to have access to first hand accounts of the day

This pride was noticeably different, to me, to others that I have been to, in that I saw less young people making visible declarations of their sexuality than I saw at previous pride events that I have been to.

Talking to my DDS friends (and I understand that this is just their view) about this, they say that they don't feel the need to make a statement, that their sexuality is normal (if that's the right word) and they don't need to announce it, just as I don't need to wear a t shirt identifying that I'm straight.

Maybe this is the natural evolution that occurs as society realises that being gay, straight, bi etc are all normal, all equal. There's no longer the need to stand out or make it a "thing". You are just you and getting on with life.

As I say, no idea if this is a widespread opinion but that's the view of half a dozen 20 year olds, across the spectrum of sexualities that I've spoken to about this.

Back in the day Pride was the only time, the only event, the only day that 'gay' people felt comfortable showing physical displays of affection, and then only in the crowds of Pride. In London this is now less the case and there are more open displays of affection, but hate crimes are rising, we still have to be aware of our surroundings.
I can still remember when the partners of celebrities on This is Your Life were longtime friend, agent etc. There is still not an openly gay footballer playing in the Premier League, watch this space for more news on that one...
The gay community has seen a lowering of the ages of consent, equal marriage in some areas of the UK, adoption becoming possible, and the end of some discrimination in law.
The trans community still face discrimination, especially those trans people who don't 'pass' (for goodness sake), so I believe the gay community should support them .
However, there is still not equal marriage in Northern Ireland. There are protest in Birmingham when teachers try to teach about relationships and there are still 72 countries in the world where being gay is illegal and 7 countries where being gay can result in you being put to death.
There is still people trotting out sweeping statements that all gay men think x and all lesbians think y and all trans people want this and all pan-sexual people want that. And that is nonsense. People are people.
I have no problem with a trans female to male person using a male toilet. Mostly I use a cubicle anyway. Those cottaging days a long behind most of the gay community. And most men's toilets are pretty disgusting at the best of times.
I am sorry if/that some lesbians feel pushed out. I'm not sure why this is. I met lots of lesbians on Saturday as we stood at the top of Pall Mall shielding the parade for the hateful signs and broadcasts of some dodgy Christians. I had the honour to talk with a lot of people. I didn't really give a 'yellow duck' what their sexuality or gender fluidity was, we had a good time.
I had no fcuk to give about who the young person was who was throwing up on Jermyn Street later that day. I saw her friend struggling and I offered to help.
We can all watch the same thing and have very different perceptions of it. I thought it was great. The Red Arrows was a highlight.
I urge more people to come and make up there own minds.
St James's in Piccadilly held a lovely free afternoon tea with facepainting for kids, for those who trolled down The Dilly, and that was lovely.

Lesbians are feeling pushed out because they are told by organisations such as stonewall that a male with a penis can be a woman and therefore a lesbian. So you absolutely should date one - or you are a homophobe/transphobe/bigot... gay men are not told the reverse.

Women are often the voices questioning child trans figures and diagnosis - it’s a social trend these days - and the safety of women in women only spaces if these are made to include males (based solely on their say so that they are a woman). Biology has been pushed aside for airy fairy thought.

Gender being conflated with sex - so your sex is not asked but your gender is. Now how useful exactly is that on say, a doctors form, or when your kid brings home a form from school to say they can go on a camping trip?

Agencies such as the girl guides accepts gender over sex as fact. How does that work?

And yet the trans community is probably most likely to be beaten up by men. There is not attempt to address this.

Hate crimes on the rise? You do realise that calling a man ‘he’ can be listed as a hate crime and transphobia. I certainly can’t tell what someone thinks they are - can you? Is a man in a dress and heels thinking he is a she? Should I address them as Mr or Ms? Should I ask and risk offending them? Are they a They or a Xi or a whatever the hell?

Always think - where are we going with this and why? Who is driving the bus?

I have no problem with a trans female to male person using a male toilet

That’s fine. From this comment I presume you are a man?

Here’s the thing then - it’s not up to you who should use spaces that have been set aside for the privacy, dignity and safety of women

I agree with much of your post. Why Pride are fannying about trying to validate fetishists (furries, adult babies etc) when so many gay people still face so much discrimination is frankly a mystery to me

I was there, too. In the parade. With my women's group, which includes lesbian and bi women. We had a lovely time and the crowd appreciated us.

I just don't think that you can conclude that anyone not wearing a t shirt or holding hands is straight, which is what seems to be the message here

They must be though as lesbians have a "look" about them, you can tell if they are so they must have been straight

Not my view just one expressed on this thread, and no it makes no sense to me either (although it obviously does to some)

In the parade. With my women's group, which includes lesbian and bi women. We had a lovely time and the crowd appreciated us

That’s really good to hear Reanimated

She wasn't. It was a snarky reply to her own exasperated statement that she wasn't sure how to comment because she found the OP "an unreliable witness

Yep

I know thats really delayed

Too early

Still no reply to my question I see, Roses. Simpkins also hasn't been back to reply for herself.

Why are you calling biological men (your phrasing) women when they're nothing of the sort?

I'm assuming that all the people here horrified by so-called stereotyping will nip over to the "In Plain Sight" thread to comment on the old pervert wearing stereotypical pink and frilly "little girl's" clothing to get his sexual kicks at Pride.

Why are you calling biological men (your phrasing)

Ooh, you're a bit twistying my words there - I said transwomen might not be biologically women but I didn't call them men.
I've said transwomen all the way through the thread. As I accept they're women/ transwomen.

Decomposers just got told to stop commenting. Why should she? Her opinion is valid too

Valid, maybe; but if you knowingly post on a forum on which you know your viewpoint is going against the general flow, then you can realistically expect to receive short shrift. People know the general consensus of opinion on this particular forum. The choice is theirs to continue to post.

The reason this poster is posting here is because they want to disrupt/interject etc A kind of trolling behaviour....and that is certainly how it is experienced.

That's not twisting your words. If you accept that biological women exist then, you must also accept biological men exist, which is the category that MTF trans fall into clearly.

So why are you calling them women? Do you think there is something else apart from biology that make someone a woman?

Maybe this is the natural evolution that occurs as society realises that being gay, straight, bi etc are all normal, all equal. There's no longer the need to stand out or make it a "thing". You are just you and getting on with life.

Neither I nor my friend felt the need to declare ourselves as anything either. London is a funny old place, I have a lovely male partner now but I know that if I had a female partner I would still feel nervous about showing her affection in public outside of pride day. I still would, but there is a level of vigilance and discomfort that I don't have with a guy. But I grew up under section 28 (don't teach children in school about being gay), I remember the Aids crisis, and homosexual men being arrested is still within living memory some. Stonewall was only 50 years ago. I'm really glad that younger queer folk feel more at ease, and that I feel more at ease than older folk. To me, there is still work to be done and still a need to protect what rights we have won - including women's rights.

I've said transwomen all the way through the thread. As I accept they're women/ transwomen

Yes, this is an open public forum and you are entitled to comment, but you, too, are engaging in troll like behaviour and you know it.

Maybe this is the natural evolution that occurs as society realises that being gay, straight, bi etc are all normal, all equal. There's no longer the need to stand out or make it a "thing". You are just you and getting on with life

And this is why 'Pride' has had its day; is past its sell by date.....and why it has now been taken over by drag queens, sexual fetishists, 'trans people' ,and their straight allies.

It's troll like to have a different opinion now? No, it's really not.

I've said transwomen all the way through the thread. As I accept they're women/ transwomen

To me, when women's rights are at risk, is really important to maintain boundaries in the language we use. Transwomen are not the same as women, whereas correct me if I'm wrong but you're using either term interchangeably. Women is a word for a biological woman, not an umbrella term. I don't want to be given the cis prefix, I don't need it, I am XX I have a vagina, there is already a word for me; I am a woman. What I do need is protected, woman only spaces.

That doesn't mean I want transwomen to feel unsafe, I want then to be safe and happy - but not at the expense of women.

But here is the thing, I loved their outfits, makeup and the fun they were having. I didn't stare, or for one second try guess their preferred gender or their sexuality choices.Why? Because it's none of my bloody business that is why

Don't be silly! Pride parades are a public event, in very public spaces. This makes it everyone's business. People dress up and wear costumes, precisely, to be looked and " stared" at. Pride is about exhibitionism and display. It is entirely reasonable to assume someone's sexual orientation based on their participation in the event.

Pride is changing though; has changed.......and is no longer just about young lesbians and gay men coming out publicly - with shows of same sex affection, kissing, hand-holding etc.