I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

[TalkingAboutPride]

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

Ooh ooh I forgot to add this and it's a big deal to me though not feminism; the streets were relatively litter free, (okay, one main throughfare I walked along really wasn't but lots were), I saw people sorting the rubbish so that it will be recycled and a drinks company was giving out water in cans not plastic bottles! That and the reusable flag cups made for an overall less plastic-heavy resource wasting event than it would otherwise have been. I thank the organisers and sponsors for that.

Well she hasn't answered the question, but you're right "not rising" was about the people who weren't convinced by the naked straights dancing on the car story.

Funnily enough you haven't answered the question I directed to you, despite your eagerness to help me get answers - why do you use the term women about men? It doesn't make sense.

The only aggression I witnessed all day was when a trans woman/cross dressing man in a G string bikini and fishnets and standing at nearly 7ft in heels pushed through the middle of a lesbian couple holding hands and shouted MOVE YOU FUCKING DYKES! as they did so.

At 2019. At Pride. In London

Sounds about right to be honest.

Have not read the whole thread yet but the 'how can you tell whos gay' stuff. Its generally, or has been when I have gone anyway, quite easy to tell the sexuality of a fair few people when you go to pride marches. Put quite simply, gay people do not hide their sexuality there. Its not about stereotypes, or people being more camp, or anything like that. Its just..they seem more at ease holding hands with their partners, kissing them in public and such. Or will have something signalling their sexuality on their clothing sometimes. So yeah, I would assume that a young guy holding hands with another guy then kissing him was gay (may be bi mind I guess..). Same assumption would go to a woman wearing a 'lesbian = female homosexual' t shirt tbh. Many of course, you cannot tell, not without stalking them for the day to see if they do do anything with the guy they are with, or whatever. But many are openly gay, as is kind of the point in pride. So I don't really find that bit of the post to be that problematic tbh, though clearly some do.

The post in general, about it all being about trans? Thats not too surprising, given Stonewalls focus these days and how gay people are told they need to stfu and just support trans people, how history has been changed to say stonewall was all started by transwomen, and basically how being homosexual is transphobic. So that this rubbish has translated into pride, is not surprising. Nor is the lack of lesbians that has been noted by a fair few. Pride has historically never really been an overly welcoming place for lesbians, but it seems even less so these days. friends who went to pride did note the lack of lesbian representation and such, along with the lack of women in general there at all. Apparently it was overwhelmingly male people there. Which again is not surprising, especially given the huge push towards LGBT basically being about kinks and stuff, which is obviously the opppsite of what gay rights was about for fucks sake. And given so many heterosexual men have decided they are lesbians too, and its transphobic to say lesbians are female homosexual people, or to reject penises at all..again this makes me unsurprised that both pride was mainly blokes. And that lesbians (and women in general) were scarce. Especially when behaviour such as the 'move dykes' guy I bolded above is going on..and that behaviour tends to be applauded by the woke crowd too, no doubt they were the wrong kind of lesbians, ones who want female partners . Along with people who are openly lesbian not being served in bars, simply because they are openly lesbian. Just so many different factors seem to make just existing as a lesbian today, especially openly lesbian (such as wearing a 'woman who loves women' tshirt...not stereotypes..before thats jumped on) seems to be looked down upon at the very best, and bigoted and violent at worst. Is horrific, the way straight men have infiltrated LGBT and made it all about them and their need to fuck lesbians. Along with the MRA infiltration that basically demonizes any woman who says no to anything a bloke says or does. Who can blame lesbians, and other women from not wanting to go to a place thats going to be full of people who hate you, and are, in many cases, likely to start abusing you simply for who you are (for example, if known lesbian people went, lets say anne ruzylo. How accepting would a lot of the pride crowd, given they are mostly trans/supporters/AGP blokes..be towards her do you think?)

People I know are mainly commenting on Newcastle pride mind, its only a few people I know who went to the London one. Apparently Newcastle one was pretty much the same, in regards to lack of women. Many (older) transwomen though. Many males of whatever persuastion. And many many people in bondage gear, and the obligatory furry types dressed as dogs crawling along the floor and that. Lots of trans flags. Lots of male people in skimpy clothing, some shouting 'I am a woman', though possibly taking the piss. I was planning on going actually, but my illness prevented it, and from reports, I am glad I was too ill to go as it would have annoyed me I think, all the focus on male sexuality and AGP people rather than what pride is meant to be about.

Long post, possible blabbery or whatever. But yeah, no issue with the 'visible gay people' thing at all. And this account mirrors a lot of accounts I have heard. Seems to be more blokes than ever there. I wonder why..

Are you very confused decomposing do you think that this forum is a court?

No I don't. But I was being badgered to ignore some of the points made by the OP which seemed less than reliable and to comment on the other points that they had "observed".

My comment was that I am taking the OP with a large pinch of salt so I am not sure how to comment on the other points. Clearly the OP was mistaken about there being next to no gay or lesbian people there so maybe they were mistaken about the rest of the happenings in their post?

OP I think this was an interesting post, there is something inherently interesting about a person's subjective experience.
I also know exactly what you meant when you said you didn't see many lesbians.

Yeah yeah I know lots of lesbians are indistinguishable from straight women but on the other hand lesbians often do have certain markers, and no I don't mean necessarily that they present as butch lesbians ( although it sounds like you didn't see many, or any, butch lesbians and that's worth questioning why in and of itself).

(Having a POC version says that the default is white. All default things only represent white people unless they make it clear that visibly POC are included. I think that's racist. And it harms multiculturalism. It divides us.*

I would also agree with this. I am mixed race, though 'pass' as white quite easily so maybe this does not affect me as much as others, but I find adding black and brown to the pride flag to be both pointless and othering. The rainbow flag represents all who are LGBT. Regardless of colour. To assume it does not represent black people and they need a black stripe on, is just ridiculous.

The other version, with the trans symbol in the middle, really fucks me off too. But makes sense, given trans stuff is totally taking over LGB these days so of course, demands front and centre. Fuck off you LGB people, your fight has been won, lick out feet and do all we say else you are transphobic. Nah, this bi woman says fuck you. Legal battles might have been 'won' (though not for those in NI) but social accptance and such is still work in progress. Work you are actually dragging backwards, by the whole 'lesbians have to accept the bepenised as sexual partners else transphobia' nonsense. Lesbians being told they have tp accept cock is nothing new. What is new, is the 'bigot' cries you have managed to make possible when they say no. Well done MRAs and homophobes, I do salute you on how clever this was. But still no, fuck you.

Second bold fal of the day, and many typos

I was in London with DP yesterday, so were lots of crowds of happy people dressed to go to Pride.

But here is the thing, I loved their outfits, makeup and the fun they were having. I didn't stare, or for one second try guess their preferred gender or their sexuality choices.

Why? Because it's none of my bloody business that is why.

Whatever happened to not judging people by their appearances?

MN is a very strange place sometimes, it really is.

I find adding black and brown to the pride flag to be both pointless and othering. The rainbow flag represents all who are LGBT. Regardless of colour. To assume it does not represent black people and they need a black stripe on, is just ridiculous.

I'm white ( although my kids are mixed race) so I didnt think I should comment on the black and brown stripes, but I instinctively felt it was othering too.

DecomposingComposers please read with a little more care before calling others unreliable

1. The OP stated she saw a bit but not all of the march and was sharing only her own impressions of what she saw with her own eyes at the limited amount of time she was there.

2. The OP stated she saw a few stages but not all of them.

3. The OP stated she didn't see many young gay men but qualified that by saying that this was maybe because she was in a different place from where they were more of them

4. The OP stated she saw a few lesbians (mostly young). She did however see, meet and speak to a large number of trans people. Which rather suggests to me that she might have been in an area or saw a point in the march where they were concentrating.

This is what happens at all kinds of marches - birds of a feather and all that. And by that same measure it is quite possible that she didn't see many lesbians aka female homosexuals because they may well have decided to keep their distance (for whatever reason).

However, as I have now seen upwards of a dozen different accounts (and many many photos and videos) all getting (and giving) the same impression - namely that Pride was male-dominated and that there were few women and even fewer women wearing lesbianism-affirming slogans, symbols, flags or t-shirts, I rather think that it is highly likely that this Pride was in actual fact male-dominated with a much lower percentage of participants being female than one would expect given the demographics involved.

This is not unlike the story of the elephant and the blind men. Pride London is such a huge event, people can come away with completely different impressions of the march. Doesn't make any of them wrong or unreliable.

Please note for instance that while other attendees reported that Pride was dominated by kink and fetish, the OP has said she saw "hardly any" of that.

But here is the thing, I loved their outfits, makeup and the fun they were having. I didn't stare, or for one second try guess their preferred gender or their sexuality choices.Why? Because it's none of my bloody business that is why. Whatever happened to not judging people by their appearances? MN is a very strange place sometimes, it really is.

Well said @donutrehomer completely agree

Who is talking about judging people's sexuality? If that's what you got from the OP there's a lot of projecting going on.
Who thinks that noticing there weren't many noticeable lesbians about has anything to do with judging their sexuality

Two of them, MTFs, were really shocked at some of the aggression on show from what they reckoned were straight men.

Yup, I would say the majority of aggression is indeed from straight men too. In whatever form they chose to take, to make said agression the fault of the person on the recieving end of it by them being labelled bigots simply for existing or disagreeing with those straight men.

Who thinks that noticing there weren't many noticeable lesbians

That's the bit you seem to to be missing though - WTF is a noticeable lesbian?
If you're not making it obvious by snogging or holding hands in the middle of the streets or wearing dungarees and bovver boots (or whatever other stereotypical lesbian "look" you want) how the heck would you know who was and who wasn't?
A few on this thread have said they have been there or know people whether friends or family who have and aren't stereotypical.

This thread is similar to when you find yourself on the odd side of YouTube. You have no idea quite how you got there, and you can't really believe the comments people are posting.

I bid you all goodnight and farewell.

WTF is a noticeable lesbian?

Are you being serious?

That's the bit you seem to to be missing though - WTF is a noticeable lesbian?

A noticeable lesbian I would take as, someone either holding hands with a female partner or showing other signs of being together, or someone with a 'lesbian' flag, tshirt etc.

Beyond that I would not assume sexualities. As I know many lesbians who are both butch, and more feminine and some inbetween.

However its still, generally, quite easy to tell a lot of peoples sexualities by their behaviour (though as I acknowledged in other post, a woman kissing a woman could be bi of course..) and sometimes clothing/flag choice etc.

However its still, generally, quite easy to tell a lot of peoples sexualities at pride

That should have read. Pride is a different kettle of fish to most other times..or I have found such.

.

Am I being serious? Yes I am. It's utterly ridiculous to state that there wasn't a lot of lesbians at pride just because they didn't look noticeable.
I said WTF is a noticeable lesbian because what on earth is one of those? Do you mean that stick out because of the way they act, or dress, or what?
I'm not lesbian but if I was I'd be feeling pretty bloody offended by some of the comments on here lol

No there's a lesbian "look" and I don't just mean butch lesbians.
Maybe lesbians really are invisible to some people then.

My girlfriend isn't really into the lesbian look so when I go out looking like what she calls "a proper lesbian" it makes her roll her eyes

If its as it seems, with the many accounts, videos and photos, that there were not many women in attendance as opposed to men, then surely it follows that there were not that many lesbians?

Has gay and lesbian culture been so fully co-opted that we’re no longer able to even acknowledge it exists?

What about gay bars? Can we say there are gay bars? How can we possibly know the people in them are gay? Are we stereotyping what a gay bar is?

Any suggestion that any such thing as gay culture, fashion, nightlife or social life actually exist is just a terrible stereotype.

an overall less plastic-heavy resource wasting event than it would otherwise have been

that's good to know. I was in central London during Pride a couple of years ago and was and at the sheer amount of litter being dropped by the revellers