I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

[TalkingAboutPride]

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

This is why I don't think Pride has had it's day. This shit still goes on. People are still nervous leaving Pride areas. Lesbians are being told that there is such a thing as a female penis, and feminists are only allowed if they're the right kind of feminist.

I agree with this. It's great that some LGB people feel they've achieved true equality and never get harassed or have to hide their true selves, but Pride is still really important for the rest of us!

There were 1.5 million people there with 1.5 million stories.

Exactly this. Which is why it's odd that OP, and others on here, felt able to draw conclusions about who was there based only on the OPs limited experience there.

Of course they can post about what they saw but no one can draw conclusions based only on that. There's already been other accounts contradicting what the OP saw.

Exactly this. Which is why it's odd that OP, and others on here, felt able to draw conclusions about who was there based only on the OPs limited experience there.

But OP never claimed to be the official voice of pride or anything like that. It was clear they were talking about their experience, what they did, and what they saw and their opinions on it. They did not draw conclusions of the whole 1.5 million people who went. I don't really get why its being claimed that they did, or tried to? They made it very very clear it was their own account and even stressed in a few places that they obviously did not see everything/everyone there, only the ones/things they DID see.

I don't think anyone drew concusions on the whole event from the OPs 'limited experience' there either. Rather, they commented on what the OP saw while there. And drew on other accounts, and the video/photo proof available also. Mind, OP is an unreliable witness, so her account should be utterly disregarded of course, I forgot that bit actually.

Of course they can post about what they saw but no one can draw conclusions based only on that. There's already been other accounts contradicting what the OP saw.

Yes, such is the nature of such a large event. Some peoples experiences wil be polar opposites. Doesn't make either false, or anything as appears to be implied in this thread over and over, for some reason. OPs account is her own, thats very clear, and again, stressed at various parts in the post. That theres been quite so much 'but I saw loads of X so yours cannot possibly be true' type stuff going on is..a bit silly really.

I find the 'womans stage' thing both interesting and fucking atrocious at the same time. But sadly, not surprising in the slightest. Yeah OP watched for half an hour, not the whole day, but even half an hour, having a womans stage with no actual women on it, is abysmal and should not be accepted IMO.

What does seem very clear from the various accounts, videos floating about and pictures, is the lack of women in general. Compared to males, in various forms. Including dressed as adult babies, which apparently should be applauded for some reason, yeah, be proud of a fetish you have where it makes you sexually arounsed to dress as a young girl in public places. Beyond me why we should clebrate that or be happy the men felt able to 'be their true selves' or whatever.

Oh, and Pride twitter purposely chosing to post a 'L with the T' banner, held by blokes. When from twitter, it seems there were a few pictures of actual women holding banners like that. But no, Pride choses a lesbian banner, held by men to lead with. I cannot really understand why they would do that..ad its annoying me quite a bit actually. Men do lesbianing better than lesbians do, it seems. Sends the wrong message surely, a L with the T banner, but the people deciding L should be with the T are men.

I was in London at the weekend (though not for Pride).
I happened to pass Emmaline Pankhurst's grave. Not sure if this is connected to Pride and not sure what I think about it yet.
I took a photo...

The Emmaline Pankhurst thing makes no sense

Depending on their social class males were already able to vote

If that is actually Emmaline Pankhursts grave then that sign is fucking crass mind. But again, behaviour I have come to expect.

I'd have removed that sign.

Thanks for your account of London Pride, OP - I thought it was very interesting.

I might have found a nearby recycling bin...

And definitely her grave, in Brompton Road cem. I've attached the bigger photo here if you want to Google..

Fascinating report, thank-you.

I was at Pride with a group of fellow bisexual and lesbian women (and one bi man). We had a trans flag and cheered loudly in support of transpeople because trans rights are under attack and we want them to know we support them. But we were there representing lesbians and bisexuals.

Just because you see a lot of support for transpeople at Pride doesn't mean it's being "taken over" by one segment of the LGBT umbrella. It just means there's more support for transpeople at Pride than you would like there to be. We had a fantastic day (bar sore feet!) and were delighted to be there representing our community and showing support for our gay and trans friends.

FWIW, I didn't see many people in fetish gear and certainly not more than there have been in previous years. I did see a lot more drag queens and drag kings. But they're not transpeople - they're drag queens and drag kings!

As PP have said, it's a festival of 1.5m people. Everyone's experience will vary. But that was mine.

Explain transphobe and attack?

because trans rights are under attack

How exactly?

It just means there's more support for transpeople at Pride than you would like there to be.

Oh no. You don't get to project that onto me thanks. I've said very clearly that I support, and want trans people to be happy well and safe. I just don't want it to be at the cost of women's rights and safety, or even being able to have a conversation about that.

Just as people's individual experiences of attending Pride are going to vary, people's perception of trans people is going to depend on, for instance, whether you have trans friends/family who you know as decent, lovable individuals (and perhaps you have comforted them when they have been harassed or abused for being visibly trans) - or whether all you really know of trans people is noisy shouty ones on social media. (And, yes, the same applies to gender-critical feminists, for that matter.)

people's perception of trans people is going to depend on, for instance, whether you have trans friends/family who you know as decent, lovable individuals (and perhaps you have comforted them when they have been harassed or abused for being visibly trans) - or whether all you really know of trans people is noisy shouty ones on social media. (And, yes, the same applies to gender-critical feminists, for that matter.)

I don't think thats true. For example my cousin is currently married to a transwoman who is kind and gentle and basically all round lovely. She has luckily never had any transphobic attacks happen to her, but its possible that thats because shes also rather big (worked out before 'coming out') and would not look an easy target to men set on violence. Might just be luck though.

I also have a few 'old fashioned transsexuals' in my friendship group.

But spend a lot of time arguing with TRA types, who seem to be much more prevalent than the 'just getting on with my life' people with actual dysphoria sadly. It seems that a genuine movement for acceptance of transsexuals, has basically been hijacked by MRAs and homophobes, to me. But thats besides the point I was answering so..

Despite having more experience of the shouty problematic straight men who yell transphobe at women for disagreeing with them and also regularly physically attack them too..my perception of actual transpeople has not changed. I still go on the individual. From my personal experience, I have found that people with dysphoria, who are actually physically 'transitioning' tend to be much more..normal than shouty TRAs. I hesitate using the word normal, but cannot think of another that would fit. Basically, the transsexual women I know, know they are male. Use male areas, despite a couple of friends getting abuse sometimes (they liken it to homophobic abuse, as they were visible gay men before transitioning) and would not dream of acting as entitled as what we see today, with the threatening women for wanting female only spaces, or expecting lesbians to do dick.

My sister knows no trans people as close friends (the transwoman I know is via marriage, on my husbands side) and deals with 'suck my female penis' types a LOT, especially as a lesbian. Has had bad experiences in person with a few of the straight males who say they are women.

But despite that. her perception of transpeople is not that they are all like that as shes..not dim. People who think all transpeople are like TRAs would have to be exceptionally dim, in my opinion.

She has the same opinion as me really. Its important for transpeople to have the right to housing, jobs, etc. And to be as happy as possible,. be accepted for who they are, not get abuse on the street, and such. Just, their rights need not overtake womens rights, which seems to be the main aim of TRAs. Its possible to advance things for transpeople without steamrollering over women without a second thought beyond 'bah she deserved it, terf'.

So yeah, not sure I agree that peoples perception depends on how many 'good; transpeople they know really. Knowing a 'good; transwoman who I do care about a lot, does not stop me from wanting women to retain their rights. And 'oddly' (in todays climate), she agrees also, that women should have the right to women only spaces. She disagrees with 'self ID', as do the other transsexuals I know, and also think transactivists are harming transsexual people, with the way they go on and how they persistently threaten and abuse women. My husbands cousins wife actually agrees 100% with me on transactivists..that it was a genuine cause, but has been taken over by MRAs recently, set on destroying womens rights, rather than actually caring about transsexuals. She thinks its obvious they do not care about transsexuals given they are campaigning for less medical help for transsexuals, less counselling, they don't need to have dysphoria to be trans, etc.

Keep going off on tangents here. For the original point, I strongly disagree. But it seems transsexual people see the issues as much as women do.

because trans rights are under attack

Which rights exactly, specify. Exactly.

Oh no. You don't get to project that onto me thanks. I've said very clearly that I support, and want trans people to be happy well and safe. I just don't want it to be at the cost of women's rights and safety, or even being able to have a conversation about that.

And, well said.

peachgreen

I am glad you had a good day, and think its great you were supporting trans friends. I don't really think noting how pride seemed to be pretty much all about trans people (or males and their fetishes), means people don't want transpeople to have support as you implied. But its your account.

As I said earlier, different people, who were in different places at different times will of course have different experiences

I'm assuming that all the people here horrified by so-called stereotyping will nip over to the "In Plain Sight" thread to comment on the old pervert wearing stereotypical pink and frilly "little girl's" clothing to get his sexual kicks at Pride.

^^ I don’t think this was addressed...

ReanimatedSGB

Yeah but as another poster so eloquently said, you don't pass laws that infringe on the rights of women and girls based on Tracey two doors down who is lovely

Fucking hell what have I just seen on Emmeline Pankhurst’s grave?!

If MEN were getting tortured (force fed by naso-gastric tube) or imprisoned (just for protesting), or going on hunger strike or just spending hours of time volunteering that they probably don’t have spare and risking their jobs and and reputation campaigning to give all women the vote then fair enough. I wouldn’t care what outfits any such men wore in so doing.

But AFAIK this was a WOMEN’S struggle and as much as the vicious punishments for resisting 100% fell on WOMEN, so should the credit for carrying out that awful struggle and finally achieving their goal be given 100% to WOMEN.

Are PP aware there's a lesbian march planned in Leeds in September?

I've only seen the crowd finder so can't link but I can try to find further info (wasn't sure if this has been linked upthread.

But AFAIK this was a WOMEN’S struggle and as much as the vicious punishments for resisting 100% fell on WOMEN, so should the credit for carrying out that awful struggle and finally achieving their goal be given 100% to WOMEN.

It's incredibly disrespectful, but they don't care, because lack of empathy or giving a fuck about women. It's all very instructive. Every day more people see it.

"Lesbian Strength presents The Lesbian Strength March - Saturday, September 7, 2019 at City Square (Leeds), Leeds, England."

The eventbrite for it just says ‘open to all women’ which made me a little bit

‘We invite all lesbian women to a short march followed by a rally in Central Leeds. The rally will be open to all women.’

But their go fund me description says:

‘We are a group of proud lesbian (adult female homosexual) women organising a march and rally for lesbians to be held in Leeds, UK on Saturday 7th September 2019 starting from City Square at 2p.m.

All women loving women are welcome.

We want to celebrate all lesbians past and present from all walks of life.

Our sincere desire is for all lesbians to be able to embrace themselves, to be comfortable with their sexuality and for them to know that they are loved and appreciated just as they are.

We acknowledge and condemn the lesbophobia and misogyny still very much present in our communities today all over the world and the resulting prejudice, persecution and violence our lesbian sisters face every day.

We wish to honour them and we stand with them in our struggle to be free.

We would like to draw strength and inspiration from our rich lesbian and feminist history to recreate and reaffirm lesbian culture and lesbian only spaces.

We need to raise some funds to meet the costs of organising this march and rally such as travel costs for women on a low income who wish to attend the event, bands, other musicians and speakers, P.A./sound system and venue hire.

The march, whilst being only for lesbians, ends with a rally where all our female friends are welcome to join us and listen to the exciting range of local and national speakers. And of course, there will be music.

Please give what you can to support us.

Thank you!

In sisterhood ✊♀️♀️‘

uk.gofundme.com/f/lesbian-strength-march-and-rally