Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

321 replies

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 14:55

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin Wink

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

OP posts:
Erythronium · 08/07/2019 09:59

I don't think it has had its day, it has just been deradicalised and defanged.

There is a lot of power still in gay and lesbian people being out and proud about who they are and who they love. We only have to look at how suppressed lesbian women are, but the pervs and the straights get in the way of all that.

They tried to do the same to feminism, but radicalism is still here, still having an effect.

Justhadathought · 08/07/2019 09:59

It's troll like to have a different opinion now? No, it's really not

In the context of this forum it is - and you know it. And we know it.

RosesAndRaindrops · 08/07/2019 10:00

Valid, maybe; but if you knowingly post on a forum on which you know your viewpoint is going against the general flow, then you can realistically expect to receive short shrift

There's a bit of difference between disagreeing with someone for "going against the general flow" and an outright comment of "stop commenting" though.

LangCleg · 08/07/2019 10:03

Pride is for signalling not stealth. That's the point of it, FFS!

Some bloody weird comments on this thread.

RosesAndRaindrops · 08/07/2019 10:04

It's troll like to have a different opinion now? No, it's really not
In the context of this forum it is - and you know it. And we know it.

So in the context of this forum it's trolling behaviour to have a differing opinion?
Then I've seen people say it's not an echo chamber in here or that people don't feel they can't have a differing opinion, Confused
I'm guessing you're not one of those posters then.
It's an open forum with different views ffs lol

Justhadathought · 08/07/2019 10:04

There's a bit of difference between disagreeing with someone for "going against the general flow" and an outright comment of "stop commenting" though

" Stop commenting" is incredibly mild and courteous given the persistence of trolling behaviour and intent. You are taking advantage of the fact that this forum is moderated far more stringently than most.

People generally come together in community around a shared interest, or along the lines of some shared world view. Nobody here is going to be anything other than annoyed by continued contrarian posting. You know this.

TalkingAboutPride · 08/07/2019 10:04

as we stood at the top of Pall Mall shielding the parade for the hateful signs and broadcasts of some dodgy Christians.

Thank you for doing that. So much work went into making Pride a peaceful place.

This is why I don't think Pride has had it's day. This shit still goes on. People are still nervous leaving Pride areas. Lesbians are being told that there is such a thing as a female penis, and feminists are only allowed if they're the right kind of feminist.

OP posts:
Justhadathought · 08/07/2019 10:09

Then I've seen people say it's not an echo chamber in here or that people don't feel they can't have a differing opinion, confused
I'm guessing you're not one of those posters then.It's an open forum with different views ffs lol

Yes, it is an open forum, but having had a break for a while, I can see disruptive posting for what it is. Of course, there can be disagreement and there is - but you know full well this is a gender critical forum - and some basic positions are not up for negotiation.

It just comes across as agitation. I'm not sure what you are really hoping to achieve, apart from that?

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2019 10:09

Here’s the thing then - it’s not up to you who should use spaces that have been set aside for the privacy, dignity and safety of women

This. Always. 100 times a day.

Enclume · 08/07/2019 10:11

@TalkingAboutPride

Excellent account, OP.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 08/07/2019 10:13

Not just trolling, sock puppeting is fairly evident too.

It's an agenda, unique to threads that involve anything to do with FWR and whatever word I'm supposed to use without getting banned this week.

TalkingAboutPride · 08/07/2019 10:15

There's a bit of difference between disagreeing with someone for "going against the general flow" and an outright comment of "stop commenting" though.

Stop commenting was mild and well regulated language in response to somebody saying that didn't know what to say because they thought I was an unreliable witness. If you don't know what to say, it's reasonable for somebody to suggest you should stop saying anything at all, especially when it's been pointed out repeatedly that your comments are derailing the thread Smile

Such is life. I don't actually think this thread has been derailed, it's just taken an interesting course that I wasn't expecting. I'm sad that some of what I consider to be the most important points have lost prominence because of debate around less important things, but it's still a useful thread - and a very respectful one, not one post has been deleted so far (and that's NOT an invitation to anybody to try!!!)

OP posts:
RosesAndRaindrops · 08/07/2019 10:15

sock puppeting is fairly evident too

Where? I'm not the previous poster like someone insinuated earlier, even if she hasn't posted to answer for herself yet if that's what you're getting at.
Wish she'd come back and cross post with me to prove it lol

Mumfun · 08/07/2019 10:24

Enjoyed your account too OP. I was elsewhere in London and met a lot of happy travellers on the tube going to and from pride. It did seem happy and chilled. I have never gone to Pride but would not start now due to the corporate takeover and policing of same sex lesbians

Absolutepowercorrupts · 08/07/2019 11:04

@TalkingAboutPride
I'd also like to say I really enjoyed your personal account of your time at Pride, I've never been so it was interesting to have a personal perspective, so thanks.
I certainly haven't missed the very important points that you made

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 08/07/2019 11:10

Yes, thanks for noting down your impressions TalkingAboutPride

I thought it was valuable

Sorry it put you in line for bizarre misrepresentation from some members of the community here

sakura184 · 08/07/2019 11:22

Pride is for signalling not stealth. That's the point of it, FFS!

Totally

Paddington68 · 08/07/2019 11:27

If you want to know what Pride is like, then go.
There were 1.5 million people there with 1.5 million stories.
Plan you day, bring water, suncream and pick where you are going to stand.

I went to a lovely church breakfast in Soho at St Anne's.
Walked to St James's as my rocky road was melting.
Dropped cake off there for afternoon tea.
Walked to Pall Mall and listened to two hours of hate from some other Christians. I talked to loads of people. Took so many photographs with people's phones of them with the Pride Angels.
Gave out hundred of leaflets and then trolled back up The Dilly. To help serve free tea, coffee, and cake to all those who wanted some.
I don't think I spent any money at all.

My partner and I then went to the theatre after queuing to cross Regent Street as the march was still going at almost 6pm. Six hours after it started.

I thought it was lovely. If you had a bad experience, if you think Stonewall or whoever is not supportive of you, I am sorry. I'll be making cakes again next year. Come as you are.

sakura184 · 08/07/2019 11:30

Also want to say that lesbians do signal to each other that they are lesbian. It's one of the ways we can get an idea of whether it's worth trying to chat someone up. I present as typically heterosexual, but often I do feel like I want people to know but frankly I'm not really brave enough to walk about the streets signaling and I think lesbians who do, especially butch lesbians, are very brave because it's political and quite something to walk about and have people know or suspect you are probably a lesbian.
I think a lot of lesbians prefer to remain invisible because it's less grief. At Pride you would expect a fair amount of signaling lesbians though, and the OP said she didn't see any.

I've also learned from this thread that some people would be totally oblivious to a signaling lesbian, to them lesbians are always totally invisible.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 08/07/2019 11:42

Super Paddington68 I’m glad you had a lovely day

Are you going to address any of the points raised In the thread? Women’s stage full of males, lesbians who are clear about their sexual boundaries feeling unwelcome, number of fetishists in the parade, grass roots LGBT groups not able to afford to join in?

ReanimatedSGB · 08/07/2019 11:47

Our group contained one married lesbian couple and two lesbians who are currently dating one another. Several of us bumped into other lesbian friends during the day, who were all enjoying themselves.

As a PP said, at an event with so many people, it's possible to have a variety of experiences because, statistically, some of the people there are going to be unpleasant or quarrelsome. I didn't see anyone being obnoxious to anyone else and didn't hear directly of any bad experiences from any friends who were there. This isn't to say that other people may have had other experiences, more to reassure people that it is possible to go and have a good time whoever you are.

PolkadotLollipop · 08/07/2019 11:51

It’s just an exercise in grotesquery now, isn’t it? How outlandish can I be in the name of wokeness and visibility. Yuck

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 08/07/2019 11:52

Outlandish I’m cool with. It’s fun

Fetishes in public? Now that I have a problem with

PolkadotLollipop · 08/07/2019 11:54

Indeed Bernard.

Paddington68 · 08/07/2019 12:07

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

Many thanks for your warm wishes.

I'm not on the Pride organising committee, perhaps you could address comments about the day directly to them. Sadly I have no control over that. If you are local and have the time, perhaps you could be involved with the Pride Committee.

What I did do was ensure that all were welcome at the venues I attended and at our little area of the route of the parade.