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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mhairi Black

367 replies

Iggypoppie · 03/07/2019 19:56

This short film with Mhairi reading out (mostly respectful) comments from women is really sad. I have always admired her but like many politicians she is unable to comprehend the issues women are raising. She says there is no evidence or legitimacy in our concerns. Oh well.

twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1146476340864081920?s=20

OP posts:
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11
Cuntysnark · 02/09/2019 08:38

There’s some good words there Lang.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2019 08:56

Why you're all so desperate to deny simple reality is both mystifying and entertaining.

HahahahahaGrin

We aren't. We know transwomen exist. We're perfectly happy with transwoman existing. We know that that they're males - whatever they 'navigate socially as'. Some are 'feminine', many others 'navigate' pretty much exactly as any other male with male socialisation does.
We understand biology, socialisation, structural sexism. We know what feminism is and who it's for. It's for women and girls. Females.

sanluca · 02/09/2019 09:02

For 99%+ of people for 99%+ of the time nothing changes, for a teensy tiny time, occasionally the word becomes a bit more inclusive than you would like.*

Except the women in jail who get to share with male sex offenders
Except the female athletes who lose to male athletes
Except the girls who lose scholarships to boy athletes
Except the girls who have to share facilities at school with boys
Except the women who get faced with male HCP when asking for a female one
Except the women who have to share with males in rape crisis centers
Except the women who lose out to awards in business to males
Except the women who lose equality opportunities to males
Except the women who get patted down by security by a male instead of a woman

All of them already have examples and will become more commonplace now perverts and misogynists have seen how easy it is to abuse the idea of being transgender to bully women who are increasingly powerless to stop it.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2019 09:15

That quite low percentage estimate of numbers of transwomen suggests to me that poster wasn't being nearly as 'inclusive' as eg Stonewall.

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 02/09/2019 09:16

but if I get caught short, I use the ladies...if somebody bumps into me I get apologised to in the female gender for instance....

Let us look at that last bit and unpick,

if somebody bumps into me I get apologised to

Apologised to
Because you are a man.

Tyrotoxicity · 02/09/2019 09:17

I love the way "I get treated socially as a woman" translated to "I use your toilets."

Subtly conflating the social experience of being female under patriarchy with shitting all over the human rights of females under patriarchy.

And "I'm treated socially because people call me love" - um, no.

Being called love isn't an indication of sex. It's an indication of personhood as determined by the speaker.

Women call women, men and children 'love'.
Men call women and children 'love.
Men do not call men 'love (nam obvs, gay men differ on this).

Men use 'love' to address those they unconsciously classify as lesser. They do not use it to address Real People aka other men. Only to address people they subconsciously view as Just Exploitable Bodies.

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 02/09/2019 09:18

Apologised to
Because you are a man.

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 02/09/2019 09:19

Posted by mistake

ScrimshawTheSecond · 02/09/2019 10:25

I wonder if using certain toilets is a way of subconsciously marking territory.

2BthatUnnoticed · 02/09/2019 10:39

The word “inclusive” is like the word “nice.” It sounds good.

When a women’s space (eg a rape crisis centre) becomes inclusive of males, it excludes some females [who can no longer be there].

When people tell women to be nice to TW, they are asking us to be cruel to some women (the most vulnerable, who truly need single sex services).

Female + gender neutral + disabled. Everyone is valid and catered for and we can stop having this conversation.

2BthatUnnoticed · 02/09/2019 10:46

Wrath yes interesting point - wasn’t there a study that showed people (of either sex) are much more likely to apologise when they bump into men than when they bump into women? With white males most likely to receive one.

jossprior · 02/09/2019 12:05

Oh dear, the boys and girls of MN seems a tad agitated....

A man, in other words. In what way do you think women 'navigate society' differently from men? Apart from using different sex-segregated spaces (which no man, however he identifies, should be using).

Yeah pretty much only the sex segregated differences thing, which is relevant a handful of times a year..... and the law is entirely different to your 'opinion'

*transtrendy so you’re female gender, and a man and he / him pronouns are a ok?

So you’ll not get cross when we correctly sex you if we talk about you?*
you can do whatever you want Sir, the day I care about GC's deadnaming or misgendering is the day that.... well..... it simply isnt going to happen is it.... you keep on...whatevs, too funny!

Trans women are male, by definition.

I said that earlier genius, a trans woman a term widely recognised, as you just did, is someone male at birth.... cool..... so we both agree on male at birth and the use of the term woman!
I knew I could make friends in here!

As someone with a background in archaeology I cannot get onboard with the idea sex is merely assigned at birth.
It is woven into your DNA and identifiable thousands of years later.
I have no objections to people choosing to identify and live as another gender but your sex is going nowhere. It will be identified millenniums later after almost every other identifying feature about you had disintegrated.

Yeah nobody cares about any of this, definitely not trans women, do you not think it weird the depths of ridiculousness of some of these arguments you have to use?

We aren't. We know transwomen exist. We're perfectly happy with transwoman existing. We know that that they're males - whatever they 'navigate socially as'. Some are 'feminine', many others 'navigate' pretty much exactly as any other male with male socialisation does.
We understand biology, socialisation, structural sexism. We know what feminism is and who it's for. It's for women and girls. Females.

Yeah just word salads hun, doesnt change the laws of the fact that time and again survey after survey, (except a couple that GC's paid for and manipulated.) shows the majority of women support trans inclusion.... you can chuck as many strawmans at that figure if you like, and repeat the mantra 'the tide is turning' all you like..... you currently have 99% of wider society boycotted, like tantrum throwing children!

Sanluca nice copy & paste job you did from Kiwi Farms, bravo...

*if somebody bumps into me I get apologised to

Apologised to
Because you are a man.*

what a wonderful sane and reasonable response...... because no-one has everbeen apologised to for a man bumping into them inthe history of the universe....okay..... sure..... brillo argument, that told me!

*Being called love isn't an indication of sex. It's an indication of personhood as determined by the speaker.

Women call women, men and children 'love'.
Men call women and children 'love.
Men do not call men 'love (nam obvs, gay men differ on this).*

I know this, I wasnt making any value judgement on the use of it, but nonetheless I get called 'love' by men regularly. So people percieve me in my chosen gender, I'm not even arsed if they think I pass or what my sex is, I am talking about navigating the world by gender, which is what everyone does.
Of course there's other conversations and nuance when sex is relevant, but 99.9999% of my life, it isnt, nor is anyone else's.
Misogyny on the street for example is simply gender based.
You all whinge about Paris Lees talking about being cat-called.... she was cat-called because of her gender.

I wonder if using certain toilets is a way of subconsciously marking territory.
Another one lifted off Kiwi Farms.... it's also a way of having a pee...... such desperate arguments.

Mhairi is fab!!

GirlDownUnder · 02/09/2019 12:13

Joss you clearly care. And are bothered enough to circumvent your ban here to keep talking at us.

Your arguments are also specious.

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2019 12:18

Do you remember when Joss was too dumb to post a recipe and just posted a list of ingredients instead, and then claimed a lifetime ambition had been achieved, when in fact it was a failure?

Good times.

GirlDownUnder · 02/09/2019 12:24

lifetime ambition ha! yes.... ahhhh good times 😂🤦‍♀️

Bless.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 02/09/2019 12:56

Oh hai Joss. Got any recipes?

CharlieParley · 02/09/2019 13:20

Thanks LangCleg I've been using that argument for a long time now. And to great effect I might add. I don't waste any time arguing about good trans vs bad trans, real trans vs fake trans, I stick to:

Females living in the UK currently have the right - in language and in law - to define themselves in a category of their own, separately from males. With their own spaces for their safety and privacy, their own sports for fairness and their own language to discuss the reality of their lives as females in a male-dominated world.

Are you advocating for women and girls in this country to lose this right? Why?

Some men online come right out and say, yes, women and girls should have no rights to safety or privacy away from males, no rights to fairness. Never had that in real life though. Most people say no, no, I'm not talking about taking rights away from anyone.

In my experience, focusing on women's rights makes for a much better discussion as most people new to the issue usually haven't considered this aspect of the debate. Whenever I meet women though who have just realised what's going on, this is exactly the aspect that gets them going - the consequences for women and girls, especially the most vulnerable.

Interestingly, DS2 recently ended a debate on the issue by telling me that I had no right to include men claiming womanhood in the category of men. And not because those men don't want to be included as men but because he doesn't want to include them. Because they don't fit in his man box. And after talking to a lot of men about this, I think that's what it boils down to for a lot of men. Unmanly men are an embarrassment to all the other men, they can go be with the women instead.

(I clearly have my work cut out to help him understand just how wide the bandwidth of how to be a real man is.)

littlbrowndog · 02/09/2019 13:21

Can’t keep away 😂😂😂😂

LangCleg · 02/09/2019 13:35

Jossling! Are you googling women's posts for plagiarism and other various nefariousness?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Excellent!

That is, like, above and beyond. I shall give you a gold star. Or would do, if my emoji game weren't so saggy-titted.

LangCleg · 02/09/2019 13:36

I've only just remembered Tardis.

littlbrowndog · 02/09/2019 13:36

👌

JoMumsnet · 02/09/2019 13:39

Just letting you know that if we spot a previously banned poster we'll always ban them, again (and again), just as we do across the rest of the site. But unless their posts are blatantly in breach of our Talk Guidelines we may well leave their posts to stand, just so the discussion can flow.

LangCleg · 02/09/2019 13:42

I'm all for the posts standing!

Even if it is like Groundhog Day.

ArabellaDoreenFig · 02/09/2019 13:54

CharleyParley

Females living in the UK currently have the right - in language and in law - to define themselves in a category of their own, separately from males. With their own spaces for their safety and privacy, their own sports for fairness and their own language to discuss the reality of their lives as females in a male-dominated world.

Are you advocating for women and girls in this country to lose this right? Why?

Thank you for this! I sometimes get frustrated when discussing the erosion of women’s rights when trying to explain it to people, especially when they aren’t thinking critically about it and are focusing on why we should just be ‘nice’, and why is it ‘anyone else’s business’.

You have just given me the perfect way into discussion!

Tyrotoxicity · 02/09/2019 13:56

Yes, let the posts stand - until today I knew of Joss only by reputation, and I've appreciated the opportunity to see for myself the tone this individual takes when addressing women and our legitimate concerns.

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