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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MtF sets 4 new world records in women's power lifting

202 replies

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 29/04/2019 21:41

www.cornwalllive.com/news/local-news/sharron-davies-dismay-trans-powerlifter-2809964

Absolute disgrace. Absolute fucking disgrace.

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 09/05/2019 16:52

This surely would be proof that this ain't right to most people?

I've been having conversations with a two friends recently about the CS case, which has some overlaps. One of them was always a lost cause, but the other I would have said was pretty practical and clear-thinking, although not very imaginative. So maybe someone who would not think much about the implications but would see the unfairness when it was before her eyes.
For both, it's just not an issue that women with male anatomy would dominate a sport, or that men with female anatomy wouldn't be able to compete in men's sport. Their first principle is that these individuals are what they say they are, and that their better or worse abilities are just like anyone's better or worse abilities.

It's the principle of self-identity that is the problem, as long as it is unchallenged it's not easy to make any headway.

I see a lot of people, even those arguing against things like males competing as women, or self-id, starting off by affirming the idea that we get to define our own identity. But - I think maybe that is something that needs to be challenged at a basic level.

MrGHardy · 09/05/2019 21:39

"Posting what? This OP?"

This story.

MrGHardy · 09/05/2019 21:41

Oh god yes, those "they are just talented females". Lunacy.

FloralBunting · 09/05/2019 22:27

It's the principle of self-identity that is the problem, as long as it is unchallenged it's not easy to make any headway.

I think you make a good point Goosefoot. It's tied up very, very tightly in our individualistic culture, which is one of the reasons many feminists are bumping up against this so firmly, because so much of feminist thinking is connected to class analysis and solidarity.

This is why we have conversations where individual women say they are fine with general female boundaries being broken, because they are thinking on an individual level, not about the wider mass of other women who do have an issue. Or why we have endless merrygorounds with women who have trans friends 'who are just lovely' and think on that basis that boundaries should go etc.

Safeguarding also rests, it seems to me, on an understanding of specific risks based on a class, which is why there are blanket prohibitions and so on.

If you don't know how to deal with risks on a class basis in our society in a professional healthy way, and your complacency lets the individual bad exceptions through the net, then unfortunately, you will end up with a backlash that will just descend into unthinking prejudice. By which I mean that if a complacent LGBT culture, for example, lets a Desmond is Amazing into a situation where he ends up subject to even more horrendous stuff than he already has been, then the gains that Lesbians and Gay men have made in recent years to shed the prejudiced myth that they were perverts who threatened children would be lost and the mob would act.

Goosefoot · 09/05/2019 22:42

I think most people really really struggle with class analysis. To the point that they don't really even understand what it is. And as far as they do have a sense of it they associate it with bad old conservative moralistic ideas.

I become very frustrated sometimes when I try and explain how to look at some issue through that lens, but often the problem is they are utterly unsuited by their knowledge base or the type of thinking they have been educated to, to think on the level of class.

Oddly they sometimes can do it in a scientific context but they can't cross over to other subjects.

Goosefoot · 09/05/2019 22:44

But this idea "I have the right to my own identity" - I think there is a lot that could be unpacked there. Needs to be, really. Personally I think its just false, that is not how identity works.

DpWm · 09/05/2019 22:49

This is simply fantastic news.

Antibles · 09/05/2019 22:57

Totally agree about self-identity. If it flies in the face of biological reality then it's completely groundless.

Even woollier social constructs are at the very least socially negotiated. You can self-identify as the most popular person in the room as much as you like but other people determine whether you end up speaking to a pot plant.

But women are being bullied into handing over a biological truth without a murmur?

FloralBunting · 09/05/2019 23:21

The internet is a big part of it too. We're like fish who don't know they're wet - we have no idea how pervasive the 'net has really become, and with it an understanding of our lives that is both incredibly superficial, and so individualistic that we are inventing new labels for ourselves constantly to keep distinct. This is why the gamers overlap with the self ID stuff so much - there's an understanding of creating a whole persona online to the point that some end up believing it is a better representation of their true selves than the flesh and blood person they are.

Childrenofthestones · 10/05/2019 04:43

"8th place. A highschool girls experience of track sports after transgender girls start competing"

Lamaha · 10/05/2019 08:00

savewomenssports.com/updates/f/usa-powerlifting-doubles-down-on-its-transgender-policy?fbclid=IwAR02XOY8zjmILBPIwEVw9_TUvogAOZIG4dfOVE-mfI5adgXNsGLWZ6oeGag

May 10th 2019: Lombard, IL – Today held a victory for women. USA Powerlifting (USAPL) voted by an overwhelming majority (46-4) to keep their transgender participation policy as is. Men who identify as women will not be allowed to compete as women in USAPL competitions, for now.

“We commend USA Powerlifting in their decision to preserve women’s sports. Some strong women and men dug in their heels in defense of the truth. It is not fair to force women to compete with men. USAPL proved it honors and values women in this sport. We won’t forget it. I encourage women and men who support this decision to let the leadership know,” founder of Save Women’s Sports Beth Stelzer said.

This is fantastic!

Childrenofthestones that video is truly heartbreking. I feel so frustrated on behalf of those girls. How can anybody watch those races and think this is right?

Lamaha · 10/05/2019 08:01

^heartbreaking

HorsewithnoPhD · 10/05/2019 08:17

The internet is a big part of it too. We're like fish who don't know they're wet - we have no idea how pervasive the 'net has really become, and with it an understanding of our lives that is both incredibly superficial, and so individualistic that we are inventing new labels for ourselves constantly to keep distinct. This is why the gamers overlap with the self ID stuff so much - there's an understanding of creating a whole persona online to the point that some end up believing it is a better representation of their true selves than the flesh and blood person they are.

Post of the week. A brilliant explanation of the madness.

GirlDownUnder · 10/05/2019 08:33

Post of the week. A brilliant explanation of the madness. Agreed! Everyone is their own brand. Glad I'm too old to be part of this culture.

Lamhah what a brilliant result and wow 46-4 is not even a contested or close result. Let's hope the push back really starts so we don't loose a whole generation of girls in sport.

GirlDownUnder · 10/05/2019 08:33

Sorry Lamaha Blush

AncientLights · 10/05/2019 08:52

Terrific result. However, am concerned by the words 'for now' st the end of para 1, Lamaha's 08.00 post. Until obliged by law to capitulate? Anyway, for now, good news indeed.

JellySlice · 10/05/2019 09:37

But this idea "I have the right to my own identity" - I think there is a lot that could be unpacked there. Needs to be, really. Personally I think its just false, that is not how identity works.

I do have a right to my own identity. I can think of myself however I choose, and nobody has the right to dictate how I think of myself.

But that is as far as self-perceived identity goes.

Nobody has the right to dictate another person's perceptions.

DpWm · 10/05/2019 10:04

JelltSlice
That is the Crux of it for me too.

It comes down to "it's your right to perceive yourself as whatever the hell you like but how dare you demand me to perceive you the way I perceive you? Your right to self perception does not overrule my right to my perception!"

And I agree FloralBunting great post. There are in fact a lot of computer addicts in the world of TRA.

DpWm · 10/05/2019 10:06

^ oops I missed out a "can't" or a "not" in there somewhere and spelled JellySlice wrong but you get the drift....

BuzzPeakWankBobbly · 10/05/2019 10:07

GirlDownUnder linked to this thread from one I started; suggesting it may be worthwhile sharing some of the stats I collated about Mary Gregory here too.

(Full text, stats and links at www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3573615-Rachel-McKinnon-weightlifting-results-compared-to-male-and-female-powerlifters?, summarised here.)

I compared MG’s lifts (as stated on their Instagram) to those published by the British Powerlifting 2018 championships. I first compared MG to the equivalent female weight class, which showed a significant difference.

So then I raised the bar (pun intended) and looked at the weight class above (which is the highest weight class for women). MG, weighing much less than these Championship lifters, still easily outranked them.

MG weighed in at 81.3.kg.

This would place them in the BP women’s 84kg weight category.

=================

MG Best Squat: 142.5kg
Women’s Best Squats (84kg): Mean: 121 / Median: 120 / Mode: 120.
(Individual “best squat”: 153.5 157.5 137.5 120 130 125 102.5 120 117.5 92.5 122.5 100 97.5)

Women’s Best Squats (84kg+): Mean: 134 / Median: 140 / Mode: 105, 155. (Individual “best squat”: 185 182.5 157.5 150 120 140 115 105 90 85 155 155 105)

MG Best Bench Press: 105.5kg
Women’s Best Bench Press (84kg): Mean: 68 / Median: 67.5 / Mode: 57.5.
(Individual “best bench press”: 75 75 72.5 91 90 62.5 70 67.5 57.5 57.5 62.5 57.5 50)

Women’s Best Bench Press (84kg+): Mean: 73 / Median: 72.5 / Mode: 72.5*.
(Individual “best bench press”: 87.5 95 72.5 72.5 82.5 57.5 52.5 62.5 72.5 80 65)

=================

MG Best Deadlift: 192.5kg
Women’s Best Deadlifts (84kg): Mean: 141 / Median: 140 / Mode: 120.
(Individual “best deadlift”:191.5 167.5 147.5 145 135 140 142.5 125 117.5 120 150 130 120)

Women’s Best Deadlifts (84+kg): Mean: 164 / Median: 170 / Mode: 170
(Individual “best deadlift”: 192.5 187.5 170 170 150 137.5 130 120 207.5 200 140)

=================

This shows exactly the lie of the whole TWAW line, and how women’s sports will be destroyed.

DpWm · 10/05/2019 10:10

Buzz holy fuck. Shock

GirlDownUnder · 10/05/2019 10:19

Interesting huh Grin

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 10/05/2019 12:53

I’m about the same height as my husband and teenage son. I’m heavier (flab) than husband and my son is a little heavier than me (muscle).

Both could kick my ass very easily - men just have more power than women. It’s muscle build innit? Women have a higher body % of fat than men.

Goosefoot · 10/05/2019 15:44

I don't know that freedom of thought is really relevant to the idea of identity. Identity in my view isn't constructed by the individual in the way that people seem to think. There is also a health angle to this - there is I think something very unhealthy about believing that you don't have to be self-critical about your view of yourself, that it can't be socially or personally damaging.

In any case, social identity, which seems to be what people mean when they talk about things like getting to pick their own pronouns, is absolutely not about a "right" that you have against other people.

The comment about computer gamers is on point I think, and I also believe it applies to what they seem to be calling "fandom" these days. I used to be active playing RPGs as a kid and teen, going to comic cons and such and of course we were weird kids in some ways. But I find some of the people at them now really odd, it's like they actually have tried to root their sense of identity in made-up characters and pop culture expressions. I notice the same thing with some of the things like drag or cross-dressing - it used to be that people seemed to understand themselves as separate from their roles, and now they don't always. You can be a "drag kid" because that is your essential self, somehow.

I also wonder if this sin't tied in a bit to some ideas we have about legal fictions. We seem to think the legal fiction of declaring you make yourself a woman, makes you one. But there are also examples that people have tended to accept. Adoption is a lovely thing, but there has been a push in some cases to want to say, the adopted parents are the "real" parents, not the biological ones. Even the marriage equality debate sometimes got into this question of, if the law declares a thing the same, it is the same, whether there are material differences or not.

It may be that we have been training ourselves, in a lot of areas, to think in those terms.

ImNotNigel · 10/05/2019 16:01

Adoption is a lovely thing, but there has been a push in some cases to want to say, the adopted parents are the "real" parents, not the biological ones

I disagree. Adoption is a terrible thing, it’s just a better thing than children growing up in abusive / neglectful homes or in state care, which are the alternatives.

And no one who works in adoption ( and very few adoptees or adopters) use the phase “real parents “. Because it’s nonsense In the context of adoption and has no shared social or indeed legal meaning.

There are three main aspects of being a parent - biological, legal and social - having a parent / child relationship.

In adoption, the birth parents are “real parents“ in the first aspect and the adoptive parents are “real” in the second and third. One is not more “real” or indeed fake than the other.

However all of this has no relevance IMO to self ID as

  1. Adoption orders are granted by the court and not self declared.
  1. Adoptees are not given a new birth certificate , listing the adopters as the biological parents. They have a short BC ( like everyone else ) and a longer documents called an extract from the adopted children register.
  1. Adoptees have none of the legal protections given to people with a GRC. They don’t have a separate section of HMRC or the passport office to deal with their paperwork, for example.

You can ask to see their Birth documents.

No one gets kicked off twitter or taken to court for saying someone is adopted.

  1. Adoption ( without a legal framework until the last century ) has been around for millennia and most societies and cultures accept it.
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