My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

[ImNotNigel]

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

I suspect it’s also because he know that XX Women are VERY unlikely to parade naked around the men’s changing room , just because we can. And although some XY men are VERY likely to do this in the women changing rooms, he doesn’t care about that.

This is what's so unfair about the entire system. Only men benefit from a policy where anyone who declares they are trans can use any changing room. Trans men who pass and have had a double mastectomy might be fine with using the men's changing room but how many biological women proving a point or even pre-op trans men will be comfortable doing so? Very few.

The only people who benefit from a policy where anyone can use any changing room are males who do not pass as female for whatever reason but want to use the women's changing room - for whatever reason. We're not allowed to dare suggest any reason other than that they are women just all the other people in the women's changing room.

Glasgow City Council's legal manager is Lee Cormack - who is married to Susan Calman

Lee Cormack is one of 70 solicitors at Glasgow council. The head of the legal department and Solicitor to the Council is
Carole Forrest.

I do actually feel a bit sorry for the frontline staff dealing with this shit.

Why.

'Just following orders' isn't a defence. If there were an incident in the changing rooms when they were on duty as the manager responsible, who gets thrown under the bus legally? The idiot who never questioned the shit policy in the first place. Saying you were doing what you were told in brain washing training isn't sufficient. Everyone has a brain to question discrimination - the answers this guy gave show his prejudice loud and clear

If they are so ashamed and embarrassed by their bodies why aren't they asking for private changing in a third space where they cannot be seen by others who do not understand? Why do they have to use the opposite sexes at all? Surely this shame would be worse in the changing rooms where your bits didn't match the sign on the door?

I can't get away from reflecting that means it comes back to psychologically getting one over the feeling of others to make yourself feel better. If that the case thats about power not your feelings about your body.

I took it that men will go into the women’s because they feel like a woman, but the manager would not expect women to do the opposite because they have something to be ashamed of.

They're opening themselves up to legal action if a woman is attacked oe harassed by a man in what is meant to be a single sex area, and they have allowed the sexes to mix.

Oh to have been there when in one fould swoop you have shown them just how idiotic they have been.

It will never happen...so in all those years running a leisure centre you haven't had to call police or throw someone out once?

Yeah right...

I asked him how he thought other service users might feel to have an opposite sex person in the changing rooms .

He spent 5 mins telling me “ that wouldn’t happen “ because anyone doing that would, by his personal definition, not be “ the opposite sex “.

So I assume that’s from his training - he’s been told that everyone who does this already has a GRC. Which is wrong of course. Mistake number one.

Them mistake number two - that a GRC literally makes you the opposite sex, rather than creating a legal fiction. So anyone objecting must be irrational and hateful.

Then mistake number three - all people with a GRC have had full surgery.

Number four - anyone who is trans ( and therefore has a GRC and has had full surgery ) is ashamed of their body and would want to hide it. So therefore they would use a cubicle and not upset anyone else.

I really don’t think he was saying that trans people SHOULD be ashamed. Just that they would be ( by definition ) .

Of course if that were true, they would just use the existing disabled facilities or the unisex facilities in the swimming area. Or even the changing rooms that corespond to their biological sex. And I assume that’s what anyone with gender dysphoria actually does right now.

Of course that’s not the people I’m worried about - it’s the ones with AGP and the voyeurs who get off on harsssing women .

I’m assuming this is the managers personal very male centred view ie “ they’ve had their penis cut off FFS, who would do that for the wrong reasons, they must be genuine and very troubled, feel sorry for them “. Or again, maybe that’s what he’s been told at training .

Hence his extreme anger at a “ non genuine trans person “ like me - fat female and forty. I don’t even have blue hair or doc martens (although I was cross dressing in navy trousers and a jumper).

Number five - people like me can’t be trans ( see above ).

Number six - only people who meet his personal definition of trans can use the opposite sex changing rooms.

Number seven - it’s “ The Law”, Glasgow Life don’t have any choice in this.

This is why I blame his training, which is probably exactly as someone described upthread.

How the hell is he going to cope when a crowd of angry women and children come to complain that there’s a man wanking in the ladies or taking photos in the showers?

Oh no, wait, I know. He’s to get out the hate crime reporting form and threaten to call the police, as per the Councils policy.

You’d think that an organisation with 70 in house lawyers and government funding of £1,218.217 million could do better than this.

Great work Nigel 🍻🍻🥂

Shame we can’t persuade a group of nuns to go swimming and declare that they are entitled to use the men’s changing room. Not sure if they are men only swim sessions but we can only hope.

Brilliant and good luck. Seems you were misgendered too........

Of course if that were true, they would just use the existing disabled facilities or the unisex facilities in the swimming area. Or even the changing rooms that corespond to their biological sex. And I assume that’s what anyone with gender dysphoria actually does right now

Well that's just it isnt it. I mean if they were so ashamed of their bodies they would use the cubicles provided . Many leisure centres have changing villages as well as the Male and female group change areas.

Yet they are specifically demanding access to the womens group change. They only ever target the services or facilities aimed at women

I'm thick as two short planks and even ive noticed that and I couldn't manage or organise a piss up in an brewery

Even if, even if you believed all that, because you'd been told. Your first question would still be, well how can I tell the difference between them and someone who's faking it?

You certainly shouldn't be surprised when someone comes along who doesn't fit the description you've been given. And you definitely shouldn't lie to them.

Well done, OP. Sounds like you were measured and calm throughout.

I do feel for the front line staff. They've been told what policy is and they are the ones that have to enforce it, deal with all the flak while maintaining a polite front. The people in power who've come up with all the nonsensical policy will be safely shut away in upstairs offices somewhere and never, ever have to deal with the bloke wanking in the ladies' changing room.

I don't mean the manager - he should have been and could have been honest from the start. Sounds like he only got defensive because he was stuck in a daft position of his own making.

Good luck with the legal department. I wonder if my own LA has policy on this ...

I am actually standing up in my living room clapping you OP, Bloody well done!

I also feel sorry for the staff, the majority of whom won't have a clue about what the rules are supposed to be.

But, better that staff are inconvenienced than a woman or child assaulted.

Am I'm afraid that I don't have much faith in staff turning away men who they suspect have ill intent. They'll just hope that the men don't do anything, rather than risk their jobs challenging him.

Two leisure centre staff allowed a man who was masturbating on a baby change mat with the door open, to leave the premises after a woman reported him.

www.echo-news.co.uk/news/16884689.police-probe-launched-to-trace-pool-pervert/

So even if you do report it, the staff still won't do anything.

And obviously the lack of action from staff makes it an even more attractive environment for perverts.

I feel sorry for the staff who have to deal with this. The training is poor, so they think they've been trained, and have been told all sorts of things 'never happen' if they have asked questions about difficult scenarios.

This manager did a poor job, though, because he couldn't remain calm and polite when faced with a calm, polite customer who was more knowledgeable than him. As the manager, he probably did feel a bit cornered, because there was nobody higher up that he could pass the problem on to (other than a phone number for the legal team), and he clearly didn't have a clue.

The general lack of discussion and the demand that anyone who asks questions is just told to 'educate yourself' with shouts of transphobia at anyone who gets something 'wrong' just makes the whole situation even worse.

Is anyone other than Stonewall/Mermaids/GIRES etc doing any training in this area? Because we clearly need people who actually understand the law and safeguarding to do this training.

Nigel, thanks so much for doing this. I was going to say it must have taken real balls but, erm, well, you know what I mean . You’ve got ovaries of steel, Nige!

Please keep us updated.

Why did he deny the policy exists when it’s on their website? Very odd.

Well done OP.
I think we all need to start repeatedly asking these awkward questions to front line staff and putting on some pressure about how these policies work in real life.

This is a great way to highlight the absurdity of this policy. If enough front line staff numbers are forced to engage with these issues like this they will eventually be able to raise it as unworkable. But they need to see it to know. So be polite and don’t mistreat front line staff - but make them think.

I also think it has put these staff people in a really difficult position to give them this horrible training and then expect them to work within stupid policies.
Somehow, they all need to realise how really inadequate the training was. I think challenging them can help, though I wonder about protests where people do things like invade the mens rooms. I think that they might just tend to dismiss that as being the result of political action, or someone being disingenuous, not really about bad policy, if that makes sense?

But the policy itself is so bad - the cross dressing element for example. Someone doesn't even have to be trans in the sense they have learned, and I really wonder what the response would be to someone who is just a crossdresser.
One thing that strikes me though is that people have become so used to training of all kinds from various advocacy organisations, and they have been taught that they aren't really supposed to question it. There used to be a man here who did training on racism, particularly around the schools, and he was terrible - he said all kinds of crazy untrue things - probably out of real ignorance rather than ill-intent, but not helpful or useful. But all kinds of young people were told that they needed to simply accept his lived experience and knowledge or they were racists.

Well done notnige keep us updated. The manager sounds rather inept and got what he deserved 😂😂😂

We need a McMan Friday.