My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

[ImNotNigel]

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

Gallus OP

I do actually feel a bit sorry for the frontline staff dealing with this shit.

I don't feel sorry for them if they take the high-handed attitude that this guy did.

Red I was thinking a lot about this issue of their policy specifically enabling cross dressers yesterday. It absolutely endorses voyeurism and sexual harassment of women in spaces they would reasonably assume to be private and specific for their sex. The law makes these boundaries very clear I think.

I was also considering cross dressing and the way they phrase it, ie it being about people being more ‘comfortable’ dressing in a masculine or feminine way.

If I as a woman were to cross dress, what does that mean? Jeans and a tee? Joggers and jumper? Pearly King outfit? I mean the options to obviously cross dress are pretty limited unless I was to exaggerate or perform a very limited caricature of ‘man’. Its not really a thing.

Now consider men cross dressing. It is usually about performing very obvious femininity and adopting those markers and what that is. Because very often (not always but very often) it’s about this femininity being sexually arousing or exciting. This is very commonly a male paraphernalia.

Paraphilia even. Although it often does include a fair bit of paraphernalia too!

I've just done my detailed response to the reply I got from my council-run leisure centres.

In short, the reply was along the 'if anyone commits an alleged crime, report it and our staff will deal with it' lines.

He admitted they've done no risk or equality impact assessments, so I'm asking a range of questions about how they are safeguarding women users, about the rights of women being shoved aside because of misinterpretation of the EA and I've pointed out that gyms in the US are currently being sued for failing to inform women users that their changing rooms are no longer single sex.

I've told him I'm not giving up.

But staff ‘dealing with it’ is them telling you that you are a hateful bigot and reporting you to Big Brother for Hate Crime. How can this be right?

'Sinners the High Power has spoken. Renounce your heresy and confess your sins. Bow down and abandon your ignorant ways and follow my lead, for I am the voice of the divine. Only those who have studied the ways truly understand. Join us and see the error of your ways'

Wtf?

Isnt 'bigot', the modern day 'sinner'?

Only, that's sure what it sounds like, every time someone plops on to tell us how we are evil and uneducated on MN.

Interesting that some people in Glasgow still understand the difference between the sexes.

This was in the toilet in Glasgow transport museum today.

What was in the toilet (no photos please if its gross)

Did my photo not post?

It’s not gross don’t worry I’m not a weirdo

It’s a sign advertising free sanitary products and telling you to ask any female member of staff.

I can understand that on a sex/gender level the poster is "correct" but FFS can males not handle sanitary products (psychologically or literally)??

At my college there’s a sign in the ladies loos that goes on about how much ‘people’ spend on Sanpro (‘£6 a month - that’s almost £77 a year’)

My sharpie was poised but I just didn’t know where to start!

This was in the toilet in Glasgow transport museum today.

It's a Glasgow Life venue. Riverside Mueum.

Was lidtening to First Minister's Questions today on the radio, about the free San Pro bill ( proposer Monica Lennon)

They managed to discuss it without mentioning Women and Girls once. it was all - people, and anyone.

@pombear

Agender presupposes a belief in gender

Genderfree does not

They are not equivalent or interchangeable.

Consider agender comparable to being agnostic and genderfree being like atheism.

”I can understand that on a sex/gender level the poster is "correct" but FFS can males not handle sanitary products (psychologically or literally)??”

I assumed it meant ask at the desk, but if there’s a man on the desk and you aren’t comfortable, then you can approach any female member of staff.

Wow the manhager best educate himself quickly really, if he comes face to face with one of the stunning and brave crossdressers the policy specifically mentions and snorts and laughs about this person being 'trans' the wrath faced is likely to be immense.

Its always women being told their 'identity' isn't valid too isn't it. 'Genderfree' is not right, you are cis!!! But, don't tell anyone their identity, they know it better than you and it can be anything and noone would ever lie.

OP, Maybe it's worth asking if there are any safeguarding concerns ? As the centre is expecting girls to share the changing rooms and showers with cross dressing males, how will they ensure the safety of 12 year old girls?

I do actually feel a bit sorry for the frontline staff dealing with this shit.

Unfortunately, it will be staff constantly faced with incidents and customer reactions who put the pressure on their management that will make them have a re think. So no, it's important that women don't not talk to staff or just silently self exclude because of socialisation to be nice and to consider the feelings and needs of staff. There are plenty of calm ways to have that conversation without becoming unbalanced or screaming abuse or having a tantrum. There are also plenty of TRAs fully prepared- as we know from plenty of evidence - to go nuclear if displeased, without giving the faintest consideration to what it does to staff or to the customers around them.

As the advice is so often given to a woman on the receiving end of a toxic relative that her partner is bent on placating because the kick off is so scary, so extreme and uncomfortable to face - stop being the easy one to upset. Stop allowing poor behaviour to punish everyone into compliance.

I’m jot sure if I do feel sorry for staff. So many seem to swallow the nonsense hook, line and sinker and don’t actually think to question it or raise practical arguments with whoever is doing the training.

How do we know a male bodied person is a genuine ‘trans’?
How do we define man and woman?
Who decided who is and who isn’t a woman?
How do we act in a situation where a woman is distraught by a male in the women’s changing room flashing?
How can we endure female safety when we cannot question males in a female area?
WHAT IS THE LAW?

But then I ask questions when I need to do my job.

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex.

FYI when the new policy was reported on Tuesday I stuck in a Freedom of Information request for the Equalities Impact Assessment.

But well done you - that was fabulous.

Update - my complaint is being dealt with by a manager at Glasgow Life HQ. So far they have been polite and helpful. I’ll let you know if / when there is a substantive outcome.

However, they told me that they have received very few complaints this week about this. Which is suprising , because it affects

1. All children who attend Glasgow area school ( including private schools ) , because they use GL facilities for sports events . And their parents of course .

1. Everyone who teaches at a Glasgow area school ( including private schools ) , because this will have to be factored into their risk assessment

1. All Glasgow life members

1. Everyone who lives or works in the wider Glasgow area, who can use the GL sports facilities on a pay as you go basis. So that will include residents of north and south Lanarkshire and east and west Dumbartonshire and perhaps even north and east Ayrshire.

So if you know of anyone in these groups who wishes to comment on the GL policy, please encourage them to call the Council complaints line

0141 287 8977

Or they can complete an online for here.

www.glasgowlife.org.uk/contact-us/leave-a-comment

they told me that they have received very few complaints this week about this

Of course they did.
Minimise, minimise, minimise.