My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

[ImNotNigel]

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

Since I’m a man tonight I feel heartless and not the slightest bit sorry for him. Because this won’t change until the men speak up.

Centre managers are well placed to tell the Council why this won’t work and is a bad idea. I could see the look on his face when I asked if it would be ok for me to walk around the men’s changing room naked - fat middle aged me.

He KNOWS he would have dozens of complaints, the place was mobbed with children and teenagers.

He belived what they told him in his training “ this never happens” and “ it’s the law”.

So I don’t feel sorry for him.

I feel very anxious for the safely of my teenaged daughters and their friends, who have been told if they complain about a man in their safe spaces , it will be a hate crime.

I feel sorry for all the women who will now be reluctant to use the facilities, in case they are embarrassed, humiliated or assaulted.

Especially those who will stop going altogether, because their religion or culture only permits them to attend women only events. Our local pool is closed to men one night a week, all staff are female too. I understand that many of the women who attend still wear fulll body swim wear that also covers their head. It’s one of the few places they can go without a male chaperone.

And I feel sorry for the girls whose parents will stop them going to play sport, in case they get assaulted . And for the women and girls who will be harassed and spied upon, unwilling participants in a strangers sexual fetish.

I've had a reply to my ongoing complaint to my council-run leisure centres about the changing facilities and self-id policy. A quick scan of it today suggests it's a whitewash, tells me to alert staff if I'm assaulted by a bloke in the changing rooms and fails utterly to answer my specific questions or supply the risk assessments I asked for.

I shall update my own thread when I've had time to read and consider my response (recent quite sad personal matters have somewhat taken over my attention for a while).

Another well done from me on the push back. I'm going to ask my local pool about their policy tomorrow. Loving your work OP! Will be watching for updates x

Disgraceful he didn't accept your gender identity.
I hope his colleagues immediately filed a hate crime incident report.

Glasgow City Council's legal manager is Lee Cormack - who is married to Susan Calman.

And therefore a lesbian.

I would hope she would be a lot more clued up on the issue and understand exactly where you are coming from.

Centre managers are well placed to tell the Council why this won’t work and is a bad idea.

I think you might be overestimating the sway centre managers have. Ultimately they dont set the policy, the are just there to enforce it.

Lee could be a man though? Like Lee Child.

adaline if he was doing his job and following the training then he wouldn’t have challenged this customer regarding their gender identity or told them they clearly weren’t in the process of changing gender or that they weren’t (in his view) trans.

I agree the policy isn’t the fault of venues or their management. But the application of it by management and front line staff needs to be fair and transparent for all.

Glasgow Life's Chief Executive is Bridget McConnell who is married to Lord Jack McConnell who is a former (Labour) FIrst Minister of Scotland.

Lee Cormack is most definitely a woman. And most definitely married to Susan, who is also most definitely a woman ;-)

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”

I suspect that they are relying on some being ashamed so not rocking the boat in the men's changing rooms. However men must be allowed to strut their stuff in the women's.

I’m confused - are you trans?

I hope his colleagues immediately filed a hate crime incident report.

Vicky

You can’t question someone’s trans credentials can you? Is he/she/it says they are, then they are. Magic words innit?

I bet he would have been a lot nicer and accomodating to a man in ladyface.

Well done OP.

Well if he's told you you're not trans when you've said you are surely that's a hate crime? Or at least literal violence or something?

Satterthwaite

Thank you.

ImNotNigel you're genuinely brave and stunning.

What would happen if a bio male (who had gained access to female changing rooms by claiming trans) exposed himself and a female service user photographed him. Would that be a thought crime or evidence of harassment? Who would be the criminal? How would you prove it was indecent exposure and not, you know, a 'rare' unashamed transwomen who didn't mind people seeing her lady dick?

Do you think the policy was "sensitively explained" to you?

No it wasn’t. I am a paying customer and

1. He denied that such a policy existed.
2. Then he said it did, but it didn’t apply to me.
3. He repeatedly questioned my gender identity.
4. He suggested that I needed to use the cubicles and not the open changing area.
5. He told me it was the law when it’s not, it’s just the organisations policy.
6. He ignored my request to see their EQIA.

I only went to register my complaint about the policy, but he confused me by insisting there was NO such policy. He was in fact was playing word games by arguing that if a man says he is woman, he is . Therefore there’s nothing for anyone to be concerned about - there is NO policy of allowing people to use the changing room of the opposite sex . Nope, doesn’t exist. Move along now.

Which is so fucking male centred it makes we want to scream.

Funny that he wasn’t happy when a woman says she’s a man. That rattled his cage. I’m the wrong kind of trans person in oh so many ways.

I expected to go along and say “ Hi, I’m a member and I want to complain about this policy”. And someone would fill in a form and send to head office.

He escalated it by lying to my face. Repeatedly . And then being just plain rude.

Beautifully done 😊

VickyEadie

Vicky - sorry to hear about your circumstances

Cross posted - the word games thing is INFURIATING.

People cannot change sex. Say ‘identifies as a woman’ as many times as you like, it doesn’t make it true.

Really well done ❤️

Nicely done!
I do think the front line staff need to deal with this. They are the ones who can pass the crap back up the line to the managers and policy makers. They can also raise informed objections at the training when told all the things that will never happen.