Another day, another friend insisting that THIS video will change minds and hearts

[emerencealwayshopeful]

I watched it. I was doing washing up as well, so it wasn't focussed attention, but I don't recommend others force themselves through it. The production values are nice though, if you appreciate such things.

I'm just feeling lost again, turning on social media after a couple of days away and finding this shared a few times over with words explaining that nobody could be 'swayed by so-called gender-critical arguments' after seeing this all the way though.

How do intelligent women not understand that none of this has anything to do with denying the existence of people who are clearly here and all of it has to do with the fact that this ideology is a threat to women and girls?

This, the Ogre's piece denouncing JY (And the other articles about that vile human) and I need to avoid social media - except that I also have a social life that is barely real so need to go there sometimes to prove to myself I still exist.

But this video was clearly drag. So how did you extract the 'trans' from it, to see it separately Bertrand?

This person is not a drag queen

How is this person not a drag queen?

I wouldn’t say she was in drag- I thought she’d pass.

But I think the intention behind drag and the intention behind the hyper feminisation of trans women is very different.

Good God.

Lots of drag queens 'pass'.

I think the intention behind drag and the intention behind the hyper feminisation of trans women is very different.

Please expand.

But anyway, I think that this discussion proves the point that her message is lost by the presentation.

I think that depends on the recipient BertrandRussell. Not sure WeRiseUp is really the intended audience.

So is your view that all transwomen are drag queens?

High camp exaggerated behaviour does not 'pass' as a woman, it is a gay male caricature.

Rose of Dawn speaks about wanting to be read as female, but as far as I see in the videos this is just through 'feminine'/sexualised presentation. RoD still behaves unaffected and as a serious person though, so has more chance of 'passing'.

It's about the external validation though. She wants people to call her she and validate her perceived inner gender identity so arising from that she puts on exaggerated femininity.

Anybody so needy of external validation would do better to undertake some therapy, imo. An audience will never be able to meet the need; attempting to engaging one for this purpose seems to me to be avoiding addressing the underlying drivers of the neediness.

Just ask any number of performers down the ages.

On the whole misgendering thing. I plonked myself next to a TW on the bus the other day as it was quite crowded and there was a bit of a conspicuously empty seat and I hate the thought of anyone feeling uncomfortable. When she got up to go I gave her a friendly smile as, even though I don’t believe men can actually be women, I still realise it must be tough on many levels being a TW. And then I thought was that really the right thing to do? had I made it obvious that I was aware she was trans and spoiled her day?
The Medium article got me wondering – is the underlying need for other people to actually mistake them for cis-women or just to behave like they mistake them for cis-women?
Because the answer to this question is very gendered imo. As a rule, for an actual women someone’s intentions, thoughts and feelings would be crucial, whereas for a man not so much, the act of getting someone to behave how you wanted them to behave would be enough. And it seems with all the threats around misgendering it is the act of forcing other people to behave as if TWAW is what matters to the movement rather than, say the emphasis being on genuine acceptance.
However much I try to look in to the nuances of the arguments I cant get away from the fact that all the inconsistencies point in the direction of these people very much being men inside.

So is your view that all transwomen are drag queens?

Drag queens are a theatrical exaggeration by gay men who present in female stereotypes and glamour.

An AGP is not a drag queen, because they are not part of gay culture.

There are also males with body dismorphia who want to pass as women who can be gay/bi/straight/asexual who wish to be read as the opposite sex - not a stand out glamorous member of the opposite sex - maybe even a bit dowdy or unremarkable. They are not drag queens.

I cant get away from the fact that all the inconsistencies point in the direction of these people very much being men inside.

They have male bodies.

On the inside they are individuals who, like all of us, have been subjected to a great deal of gendered socialisation.

There are also males with body dismorphia who want to pass as women who can be gay/bi/straight/asexual who wish to be read as the opposite sex - not a stand out glamorous member of the opposite sex - maybe even a bit dowdy or unremarkable. They are not drag queens.

So glamorous transwomen are drag queens but the dowdy ones aren't?

I agreed with pretty much all of that and I'm fairly terfy.
It was a great argument for treating trans women with respect and compassion and for trying to find shared experiences and common ground.
None of that means, however, that "cis women" shouldn't have our own spaces, our own sex protections and our own political movements promoting our own interests.
When the trans lobby stop attacking us outside meetings and trying to get us fired from our jobs-I'll be ready to form alliances.

So glamorous transwomen are drag queens but the dowdy ones aren't?

Firstly, I don't believe in such a thing as a 'transwoman'. Humans can't 'cross' or change sex.

Secondly, drag queens are gay men and not all males who identify as trans are gay. AGPs are not drag queens.

Thirdly, drag queens are exaggerated and high camp, often glamorous caricatures of women, though they may deliberately choose a 'dowdy' look it is be unusual and will still be a 'caricature of a dowdy woman' seen through the gay male lens - so exaggerated and theatrical in some way.

Fourthly, if a male doesn't behave as an exaggerated caricature of a female and is 'crossdressing' or taking hormones or having surgeries in order to be viewed as the opposite sex because they have a profound psychological problem, (not sexuality based) that compels them, and they don't want to draw attention to themselves, then they are not drag queens.

And they are dressed like a parody of women

And for this video presenter to exaggerate femininity

I don't think there is anything particularly exaggerated or a parody about her appearance. Her makeup wasn't OTT. The dress is a tea dress. I have dozens similar. As for the hat/ fascinator, I wear proper hats and occasionally fascinators , not just for weddings.

Pretty uncomfortable with the idea that femininity is a parody or caricature of womanhood. I am not a feminine woman but there is nothing wrong with femininity per se.

The reason for this person dressing in a very feminine way is explained in the video, and the reasoning made sense to me.

I can't understand your logic as to why you say that this person is a drag queen when she doesn't say that. It seems to boil down to your view of their femininity and sincerity.

I can't understand your logic as to why you say that this person is a drag queen

The whole presentation of the video (that admittedly I couldn't tolerate for long) was pure drag.

None of that means, however, that "cis women" shouldn't have our own spaces, our own sex protections and our own political movements promoting our own interests.

There is no such thing as a "cis woman". Males are not women. You're enabling this bullshit.

It seems to boil down to your view of their femininity and sincerity.

It really doesn't. It is familiarity and experience.

For example, if you listen to Amy Winehouse you can hear that the backing and production is a slightly pastiche Motown sound from the 60s.

If you see an episode of Killing Eve you can recognise production values taken from Nordic Noir.

If you are an archaeologist and you see a small fragment if pottery you can date it because you know what a complete pot from that period looks like.