Another day, another friend insisting that THIS video will change minds and hearts

[emerencealwayshopeful]

I watched it. I was doing washing up as well, so it wasn't focussed attention, but I don't recommend others force themselves through it. The production values are nice though, if you appreciate such things.

I'm just feeling lost again, turning on social media after a couple of days away and finding this shared a few times over with words explaining that nobody could be 'swayed by so-called gender-critical arguments' after seeing this all the way though.

How do intelligent women not understand that none of this has anything to do with denying the existence of people who are clearly here and all of it has to do with the fact that this ideology is a threat to women and girls?

This, the Ogre's piece denouncing JY (And the other articles about that vile human) and I need to avoid social media - except that I also have a social life that is barely real so need to go there sometimes to prove to myself I still exist.

But it doesn't address any of the actual points raised in the video. Saying, essentially, "I won't listen to this because your appearance and beliefs are insulting to me" sounds a lot like #nodebate, don't you think?

If you have a problem with men presenting in a feminine manner

I love a ‘feminine’ presenting man, fyi [grin

Maybe most who like that kind of presentation agreed with her anyway but whether you like it or not you can still listen to it and address the points raises. I find some of the long GC essays very difficult to get through but I do because I think what they have to say is interesting and worthy of attention.

My problem, and one I just can't get over, is that trans-genderism/sexualism is really all just about 'presentation', and feelings.... It rests on presentation. Presentation is what it is all about.
Presenting in a way that 'matches' the imagined feelings of what it means, or must feel like, to be the opposite sex.

But it doesn't address any of the actual points raised in the video. Saying, essentially, "I won't listen to this because your appearance and beliefs are insulting to me" sounds a lot like #nodebate, don't you think?

How would you feel if a GC woman dressed up in a wig; painted some stubble on their chin; a frilly dress and some DM's and gave a lecture to trans activists about the gender critical arguments?

If you're honest it would be reported to the police straight away, wouldn't it - as a parody; a hate crime

Yes, it is just about a feeling. And I agree that ultimately its impossible to get past that.

One point of the video I found really interesting was that Natalie explains her own experience as being that she used to be a man and is now a woman. I would be interested to hear how her feelings are different/changed, because someone acknowledging that surely must be able to identify what is the difference. The video only talks about outward presentation to avoid "misgendering" though and doesn't delve into what feelings the outward presentation is supposed to convey (if not stereotypical ideas of masculine and feminine).

If I had the budget and the face for video I'd love to make a video but the other way around with my inner transwoman as the "baddy".

...because your appearance and beliefs are insulting to me" sounds a lot like #nodebate, don't you think?

No, it means don't try and pretend that just by dressing in such a way - and mimicking gestures in an exaggerated, drag style fashion, that it makes you a woman. I'm finding it extremely odd that you cannot see this? Presentation is the whole point. Men presenting themselves as women based on clothing and mannerisms. Whatever the motivating feelings beneath that is irrelevant. 'Feeling like a woman' does not make you a woman either.

I see that and agree totally justhadathought. What I have issue with is using that to refuse to listen to another person's point of view. In my eyes its exactly the same as trans rights activists refusing to engage with GC feminists because of their GC beliefs, i.e. No debate.

The video only talks about outward presentation to avoid "misgendering" though and doesn't delve into what feelings the outward presentation is supposed to convey (if not stereotypical ideas of masculine and feminine).

This is the real point. If gender is something innate, then you don't ned to dress or present it in anyway. The TRA argument goes that biological sex doesn't matter, only an internalised gender feeling does. So why go to the bother of presenting and dressing in such an overt way, in a theatrical style - why not just be yourself and explain to people how that feels? Can't they just be a man talking about their more delicate feelings, and explaining how these have arisen?

Instead, we get 'The Black & White Minstrel Show', or a white person 'blacked out' talking to a black audiuence about how much they love R&B and gospel singing. Really feel it in their bones.

It's about the external validation though. She wants people to call her she and validate her perceived inner gender identity so arising from that she puts on exaggerated femininity.

If I had the budget and the face for video I'd love to make a video but the other way around with my inner transwoman as the "baddy".

Couldn't the 'inner transwoman' just be an alter ego - an aspect of the personality that you like to express now & then. 'She' wouldn't have to be a baddy. We are all multi-faceted - and that includes women. Trans men spend so much time trying to assume a role, and have to be careful not to 'drop out' of it accidentally - which is why it all comes across as so false and studied. The real self eventually peeps out.

Trans-women, sorry.......not trans men - ( but they do too)

It's about the external validation though. She wants people to call her she and validate her perceived inner gender identity so arising from that she puts on exaggerated femininity.

And that is what makes it all so oppressive and totalitarian. that people have to be forced through threat of arrest, or loss of livelihood, to validate your feelings about yourself. Even in the the face of reality, and biological fact.

YY. It's gaslighting on a grand scale.

What I have issue with is using that to refuse to listen to another person's point of view. In my eyes its exactly the same as trans rights activists refusing to engage with GC feminists because of their GC beliefs, i.e. No debate.

But we have all heard the arguments in full many times before - we just don't agree with the conclusions. I think most GC women are perfectly able and willing to answer each question in full, with explanation and examples; whereas most TRAS refuse point blank to engage - because they think any debate 'invalidates their existence'. And on the occasion when they do engage, the paucity and irrationality of their arguments shows them up.

Yeah see that's totally reasonable and I agree with you. Just commenting "yuk" about the video doesn't really get the point across though, except to the already converted (not saying that you said this, but another poster did).

Just commenting "yuk" about the video doesn't really get the point across though, except to the already converted (not saying that you said this, but another poster did).

You must have heard of the phrase " The medium is the message"......and if you really want to convey an idea to an audience, it is probably best not to antagonise them right from the start.

The fact is 'Presentation' is the WHOLE ISSUE with trans-genderism/sexualism. The presentation is the site of conflict, and of debate. It is all about presentations of the self.

And for this video presenter to exaggerate femininity is in such a way just heightens the disconnect between reality and presentation. It doesn't disguise or make the presentation any more palatable, or any more believable.

I can't bring myself to use 'she' either; instead I use 'they'.

The other day I watched a video by a transman. I'm quite happy to call him "he" here because he passed outwardly, and spoke calmly and reasonable about his life and how he felt. I listened to him and though I don't agree that he is really a man, because of the way he presented himself, with self-respect and respect for his viewers, I listened to him thoughtfully, and out of politeness use male pronouns here, and would do so in his company.

That's the way to do it, if you want to get GC people on side. If you really want to get their backs up and push them away, then do what this person in the video did. If you have a reasonable and intelligent position and argument, then there's no need for gimmicks and theatricals. It just appears narcissistic and I never listen to narcissists.

For me this whole presentation issue, when it comes to trans women, is aggravating because it is so clearly related to drag; to gay male sub-culture; and also for the reason that for some men presenting in women's clothing is a fetish; a fetish that taken over their entire life.

As the poster says, it is the sheer narcissism of it.

I agree with you just and lamaha.

Drag is light-hearted entertainment with strands of misogyny, anguish, defensiveness and rebellious challenge running through it. It is an art form by and for gay men (even though it spills over to wider audiences here and there). It is about the struggles, jokes and aesthetics shared by many gay men, but it says nothing about women or women's rights.

If a drag artist sets themselves as either:

1. Actually being a woman or
2. A spokesperson for women's issues and concerns

They are both a CF and an adversary of women.

I abhor drag-but I do try very hard to separate it in my mind from transwomen. One thing this video did was to help me understand the hyper femininization thing- that made a lot of sense.

This person is not a drag queen, so what's your point?