Another day, another friend insisting that THIS video will change minds and hearts

[emerencealwayshopeful]

I watched it. I was doing washing up as well, so it wasn't focussed attention, but I don't recommend others force themselves through it. The production values are nice though, if you appreciate such things.

I'm just feeling lost again, turning on social media after a couple of days away and finding this shared a few times over with words explaining that nobody could be 'swayed by so-called gender-critical arguments' after seeing this all the way though.

How do intelligent women not understand that none of this has anything to do with denying the existence of people who are clearly here and all of it has to do with the fact that this ideology is a threat to women and girls?

This, the Ogre's piece denouncing JY (And the other articles about that vile human) and I need to avoid social media - except that I also have a social life that is barely real so need to go there sometimes to prove to myself I still exist.

Oh maybe it wasn't an author's signing. He just ran up to her. Even worse.

You were trying to convince me that it is ok for Greer to refer to another person as "it".

I don't think it is.

HOWEVER.

As usual she stopped just before the difficult bit!
I was listening to the comedian Stuart Goldsmith talking about this and he said he wished more people would say “I don’t know”. He said he personally doesn’t know what the right thing to do about refuges, for example, and if only more people were prepared to say that maybe there would be a discussion. Polarised opinions stifle debate.

No, I'm disagreeing with you. It's different.

Out of interest, how can you judge it then?
I'm an adult. If someone starts speaking to me as if they're an attention seeking silly child, I'm not going to listen. Talk to me adult to adult, and I'm with you, even if I don't agree. This person was chalk on a blackboard.

Yes. Even if someone comes from a position I agree with but presents in such an irritating way - I won't persevere with it. Life's too short. Absolutely no one is obliged to watch it. If some people like the production values, style or humour of it good for you. I find it irritating beyond belief. And if you read our Greer in that way to start you are going to piss off and offend a lot of people. If you have something serious and worth saying, maybe don't prat around like a little dickhead in a way that puts a huge number of people off.

I watched a previous contrapoints video once, where contrapoints had a 'debate' with a straw man gender critical feminist - also played by contrapoints. The video ended with a menstruation fetish scene, with contrapoints sitting in a bath of red liquid.

So yeah, I won't be subjecting myself to another contrapoints video any time soon.

There was a lot of discussion on Reddit when this vid came out though.

I used to really like Contra Points for his leftist stance, though looking back he only ever discussed cultural issues, not much actual class politics, but still he was funny and progressive. But as soon as I saw any vids of him on Trans stuff, specifically where he was describing a 'TERF', the penny dropped immediately. It was obvious to me he was describing a feminist, and that set me down the road of questioning the trans narrative.
You could say Contra Points turned me Gender Critical.

It’s such a tedious, self-regarding, attention-seeking performance. People (general people, not trans people particularly) like this do seem to expect an awful lot from those they force into an audience role.

Agree that life’s too short.

I managed 8 minutes before the pretentious waffle and exaggerated facial expressions irritated me too much to continue.
Also, why were they dressed like a 1940s [female] film star?
And why dressed like the goddess of death in Thor Ragnorak when they were portraying a gender-critical woman?

Also, why were they dressed like a 1940s [female] film star?

What an odd comment. Why shouldn't they dress like a 1940s film star? I found the video quite amusing to begin with, even if I didn't agree , although got bored about the same stage as you but the dress , hat etc was lovely.

I found the video quite interesting and will probably watch more of the channel later.

I thought it addressed quite well some of the aspects of being trans that I've found difficult to understand like the hyper feminine appearance of some TW. Like Natalie says, because she really, really doesn't want to be misgendered she goes to huge efforts to try and avoid it. I can understand why someone would do that and can accept that TW don't necessarily think that being a woman is just about clothes and make up.

I think she's very honest and genuine with her history and experience which is good and interesting to hear.

It's a shame that the video doesn't really address what I see as the key concerns that GC women have and instead has a parody character spouting one line soundbites. As said at the beginning of the video, this is a nuanced and difficult conversation and neither sides points can be reduced down to a one liner. I'd have liked to see discussion of the male vs female criminal patterns and consideration of the potential for abuse that arises from a self-ID system. It seems disengenous to acknowledge that women have concerns arising from their own past abuse but then seemingly put these women and their concerns aside in favour of more easily addressed points.

As with most videos and discussions I've heard from the perspective of TW the discussion is very much centred around the individuals experience rather than considering societal experience (as I think is more commonly the viewpoint that GC women approach this issue from).

There's another good response article here
medium.com/@aytchellis/response-to-contrapoints-263a2796bb9b

@Raisinbrain, that's an excellent article and just shows that it's the presentation of the video rather than the actual content (arguments) that turn people off. I am always willing to listen to good arguments and argue back but not with someone who talks like a clown, and the fact that this person is so oblivious of her effect speaks volumes.

Thanks for sharing Raisinbrain, that's a great article.

The article is interesting, the video as well IMHO. The insulting comments about the presenter in this thread are less helpful and seem unnecessary and cruel.

Lamaha I think saying she speaks like a clown and therefore her arguments are not worthy of listening to isn't fair.

Her viewpoint and experiences are interesting to hear and the medium of presentation just as valid as any. She's just a person expressing herself in a fun manner, attack the arguments sure but attacking the way she speaks and looks seems unnecessary and mean and detracts from the GC argument.

Gosh I've just read this thread properly. People say mumsnet is transphobic and I've never really seen it here on FWR but it's really coming out on this thread (homophobia as well). How depressing.

“sh I've just read this thread properly. People say mumsnet is transphobic and I've never really seen it here on FWR but it's really coming out on this thread (homophobia as well). How depressing.”

Report all posts that concern you.

Greer could’ve done better.

And I do think we draw far too much attention to what trans women are wearing given that we’ve concluded
it doesn’t matter a hoot - we can’t criticise people for not getting the dress-code right when we’re agreed that women are not defined by their clothes.

Above all though, women are defined by their biology. And that’s that.

Contra Points likes to pretend that they are the reasonable middle ground, but they are anything but.

Contra Points does not like women who disagree with, or stand in the way of what Contra Points wants.

@StarSpangledAnna: it is my subjective opinion. I said above that it felt like chalk on a backboard and I mean that literally. I could not listen to it and the presenter did feel like a clown and not worthy of listening to.

I am quite happy to listen to people who speak normally without exaggerated role-playing. That is my personal preference, and is my right. It didn't seem like fun to me, just extremely irritating.

You are welcome to find it fun or funny; we all react differently. I'm not a mean person but I dislike these kind of performances. Maybe it's an age thing; maybe the video is aimed at young people who need their presenters to be costumed and playing a role. I'm quite happy with people speaking in their normal voice and wearing ordinary clothes and presenting their arguments, even if I disagree, articulately and evenly. No need for theatrics.

Presenters know to slant their presentation to the designated audience. I (and others like me) am obviously not the right audience for this.

I watched a previous contrapoints video once, where contrapoints had a 'debate' with a straw man gender critical feminist - also played by contrapoints. The video ended with a menstruation fetish scene, with contrapoints sitting in a bath of red liquid.

YY. People who think this person is "thoughtful" should maybe watch that one.

I found the presentation very annoying too. I wish she had just talked to the camera without all the distractions. What she had to say was interesting- but I found it hard to take in.

Exactly Zut and it is non stop snark all the time. The look is copying Lady Gaga carrying a cup and saucer from ten years ago.
m.zimbio.com/Lady+Gaga/articles/216/Lady+Gaga+Obsessed+Teacup