Another day, another friend insisting that THIS video will change minds and hearts

[emerencealwayshopeful]

I watched it. I was doing washing up as well, so it wasn't focussed attention, but I don't recommend others force themselves through it. The production values are nice though, if you appreciate such things.

I'm just feeling lost again, turning on social media after a couple of days away and finding this shared a few times over with words explaining that nobody could be 'swayed by so-called gender-critical arguments' after seeing this all the way though.

How do intelligent women not understand that none of this has anything to do with denying the existence of people who are clearly here and all of it has to do with the fact that this ideology is a threat to women and girls?

This, the Ogre's piece denouncing JY (And the other articles about that vile human) and I need to avoid social media - except that I also have a social life that is barely real so need to go there sometimes to prove to myself I still exist.

It really doesn't. It is familiarity and experience

So you have drag queen radar? I'm sorry, what you are saying is just nonsensical. This person is a trans woman. A person born male and now taking hormones and making other changes to be perceived outwardly as female. She says so in the video. That is not the same as a drag queen and saying that you "just know" she is a drag queen and then making some spurious analogies is not an argument.

Feel free to reply to the points made in the video, but repeatedly dismissing her as drag and thus not worthy of response is just weak (and offensive).

Thanks for all these responses. I posted in the middle of the night last night and haven't had a chance to come back to participate in conversation because of family and holidays etc.

The video upset me because it purports to answer difficult questions but actually was a single individual answering carefully crafted statements that avoided any of the big issues. The audience was told about nuance, and carefully curated personal stories, but in the end we are still told that it can ruin someone's day to be 'misgendered', That 'woman' has meanings other than adult human female and the right to female only spaces and all the concerns raised by feminists worldwide were dismissed out of hand.

I'm also finding the argument that this is not a drag queen interesting. Again, it seems that what some people recognise as something that belongs in a particular category is read by a different individual as something else entirely. But then it is read as malicious.

It's still a handy one word description of a thing. Id rather talk about concepts than get bogged down in semantics.

No, it really isn't. This is not about "semantics". These male people are not another type of woman, which is what you are saying. What justification do you think you have for excluding them from any women's spaces at all if they are?

JustBecauseYouAreUniqueDoesNot

Pretty uncomfortable with the idea that femininity is a parody or caricature of womanhood. I am not a feminine woman but there is nothing wrong with femininity per se

I have seen posts on FWR saying that feminine women are in drag. A poster once posted about how much she loathed drag queens but feminine women were even worse.

This person is a trans woman. A person born male and now taking hormones and making other changes to be perceived outwardly as female.

You can make changes to your appearance, but you can't control how others perceive you. If you base your sense of self on how others perceive you, you will always be disappointed.

WeRiseUp, that message made me laugh. I note you still haven't explained exactly what it is that makes her a drag queen, except that you think she looks like one.

My message is that your arguments are weak, not you personally. I don't engage in ad hominem.

Agreed, OldCrone. I cannot imagine basing my entire identity around how others perceive me.

I thought it was interesting, I thought she was an excellent communicator and she made me reflect on a few things differently; the hyper feminisation aspect some transwomen employ and the issue wit a woman having a different lived experience from a transwoman.

However, these are not really my main concerns about the trans movement anyway; wear what you like and I'm happy to use whatever pronouns you like. I'm more concerned with children undertaking irreversible medical procedure and transwomen invading womens's sport and other prizes. I don't have a problem with a transwoman in Primark changing rooms.

You can make changes to your appearance, but you can't control how others perceive you.

And that really is at the heart of this. Contrapoints knows that many women are never going to buy into the idea that Contrapoints is a woman, so Contrapoints finds it expedient to smear, mock, dismiss and misrepresent these women.

Well, I would say it starts off reasonable, but does not actually address any GC arguments, and of course ends with TERF and how they are evil witches who want to eradicate transwomen. Unsurprising. How anyone can claim its not a slur is beyond me. I have only ever seen it used as an insult, or a way to shut down conversations.

@BettyDuMonde thank you so much for that response video. It helped a lot.

I just cannot believe that person is a woman. They are just not. Same way with belief in god I just can’t believe as I know it’s not true. I respect other people’s beliefs but nothing can change mine. Nothing.

I note you still haven't explained exactly what it is that makes her a drag queen, except that you think she looks like one.

And that's her perception. Something over which nobody else has any control. Some people will perceive transwomen to be no different to drag queens. And you can't control how others perceive you.

If you watch the Contrapoints video about "incels" Contrapoints has significantly more sympathy for them than Contrapoints does for women uncomfortable with trans ideology. Which is interesting.

That is interesting.
Very

And that's her perception. Something over which nobody else has any control. Some people will perceive transwomen to be no different to drag queens. And you can't control how others perceive you.

Sure, I agree. But if you're dismissing someone's perspective because they are a drag queen, but in the way they present they are actually just a trans woman (in this video at least, which is the only one I've seen), then it is of relevance.

My original question was does the pp think all transwomen are drag queens and if not then why this one - just because she is feminine in the video?

What is the difference between a flamboyant, highly camp male who presents as 'a woman' who calls themselves a drag queen and one who calls themselves a 'transwoman' (apart from the levels of offensiveness to women)?

In my view, one lives as a woman and one performs as a woman principally for comic effect. In the video, I see a feminine woman. Knowing that the person is trans, I see a person born male who now outwardly presents as a woman. And I find myself agreeing with a lot of what she says.

As to your last point, you have been gratuitously offensive to me so I see no reason to accommodate your preferences.

Contrapoints was "born male" and will never be anything other than male.

The reason it is important to discuss drag queens is because some gay men have a very deep seated need to adopt camp and flamboyant mannerisms. It's a long discussion to be had and often comes from a place of pain and defiance and a search for identity, acceptance and significance.

The reason why this is relevant to this thread, is because exaggerated 'femininity' is part of the camp/drag thing.

If the narrator of that video is trying to say that the motivations for camp exaggerated 'femininity' in drag for gay men is totally different for camp exaggerated 'femininity' for gay men who call themselves 'trans', then the narrator is attempting to hoodwink you with all the smoke, mirrors and razzmatazz.

What are the motivations for women who are extremely feminine?

I understand the point you're making. However, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that anyone should police who can be feminine and to what degree, and what that necessarily means.

I agree, WeRiseUp.