Ama - transwoman

[Indigo9]

I've heard about Mumsnet for years in regards to views on transgender women. But until today I had never visited the site. I've spent hours reading posts related to transwomen and the gender ID bill. I do think there is a little bit of a disconnect with regards to who and what we are. So I've decided to setup this profile with a mind to answering questions you may have about being transgender. I'm not in to hate or insults, so you won't see me participate in any mud slinging, name calling or anything else. I will, however, answer any legitimate questions from my own perspective. I do not speak for the whole trans community and would not try to, but will happily share what I know.

hi indigo god bless ya for putting yourself through this, I know why you want to do it and you will get some genuine questions from people who have never really talked to someone who's trans wanting to understand your experience and that is always useful as it is easier to dismiss what we don't understand. but ultimately you will just be asked to justify your life with circular questions that have no right answer, as has happened many times before. not everyone on here holds the same view point and most probably fall somewhere in the middle as with most things. we present a problem to a society that is set up on binary grounds because for some people we just don't fit either option, and until the day we don't live in such a society there are no other options. I have a feeling that we are some of the last binary trans people msny younger trans people see less fixed with there presentation as they are not tied to the binary consept as we are. this will have far reaching consequences in the future but we are living in a time when society is struggling to keep up with the changes in how people define who they are and thst some people don't want society to change at all.

Thank you for engaging with us here, I know it can be heated and appreciate that you have taken the leap. I apologize in advance for this TL:DR of a post. My actual questions are at the top, with an explanation beneath.

The sex vs gender point is central IMO. What is sex? What is gender? Are they the same? Are they different? If yes, how so?

My answers would be:

1. Sex - The reproductive category one inhabits. Determines whether not bleeding from your genitals once per month is normal or something you should go to the doctor for. Also determines whether one will never ever become pregnant. In humans, female adults are called women and male adults are called men. Some people have disorders of sexual development, which means that their bodies do not follow normal development for their sex, but these disorders are objectively verifiable and intersex people are still, technically, of one sex or the other. If you have a y chromosome, you are genetically male. Intersex people do not produce a 3rd gamete.

2. Gender - the cultural expectations which are placed on an individual based on their sex. So, female people (women) are expected and encouraged to be quiet, passive, submissive, non-confrontational, frivolous, and decorative/alluring. Male people (men) are expected to be dominant, leaders, competitive, logical/unemotional, and sexually rapacious. This has consequences for the people who fall outside these boxes, which is actually most people since most people are not walking Barbies and GI Joes. Highly gender nonconforming people absolutely face prejudice and I oppose this.

I am a feminist precisely because I abhor the box that women get shoved into based on nothing more than being visibly female. It repulses me and causes harm. The boxes are restrictive and can be safely disregarded, but my biology will continue to have a daily, cumulative, and lifelong impact on my life.

So when someone tells me they feel like a woman despite having a male body, I have to ask, how?

Does it feel like anything in particular, or is it some nebulous category which has no describable parameters but is simultaneously so central to one's identity that a refusal to aknowlege it is the same as annihilation?

Because I have noticed that the answers change depending on the person asking. The sceptic gets an answer along the lines of "I just know, it is impossible to describe but I know myself and you must respect that no matter what". The believers, however, on their various social media hangouts and among friends, are told pinkbrain/bluebrain stereotypes which I find offensive, frankly. When they know nobody will call them on it, they will quite happily proclaim that they knew they were a woman because they loved dress-up and makeup and sparkles etc etc. The really infuriating ones assert that it's because they've always "felt weak on the inside", or because they get turned on by being submissive and being treated like a slut (yes, really).

I apologize if I sound frustrated, but one of the worst parts about these conversations (and I do give you great credit for being here and engaging, thank you) is how difficult it is to get a straight definition to anything. And when you do get a definition, it is often based on the stereotypes I so vehemently reject, now elevated to the true essence of womanhood.

And, I'm sorry, but how can you fight for women if you don't know what a woman is?

"I do think there is a little bit of a disconnect with regards to who and what we are. "

Yep, there's certainly a disconnect somewhere. Not sure it's with 'us' though.

Lydiamajora Great post

OP, do you realise how incredibly offensive it is to say that you 'think like a woman'?

I'm a woman. I know how I think. I don't know how any other person on the planet thinks, male or female. I cannot imagine that there's a single thought which every woman on the planet has had, but not one of the men have. The closest I can come is worrying about when/whether her periods would start, but even that's not completely universal, and it's definitely not what you as a male-bodied person mean by 'thinking like a woman'.

So what is it? I remember being told by a relative that I 'think like a man'. This was because I was decorating my home in a minimalist style. Does that mean that I'm really a man? No. It means that this relative held the sexist idea that all women should want ornaments and knick-knacks around their home, and no men should. Which is stereotypical nonsense, and patently untrue.

Women are individuals, and reducing us to some sort of homogeneous hive-mind by saying you 'think like' one is incredibly insulting, especially when you refuse to explain what you mean. We are not the Borg.

but ultimately you will just be asked to justify your life with circular questions that have no right answer

So it’s the questions that are circular now, not the answers?! Classic!

“Ask me anything - except a “circular” question that means I have justify my life even though I’m the one who came here to justify my life”

Women don't think in a certain way. I accept that you've become the social construct of the gender you're chosen to accept- but that doesn't change the biology, no matter what. I'm sure you have had to go through a lot for your beliefs- and hope that you have support. But being told I have to accept that your rights superceede mine. And any dissent will be met with screams of transphobia- I don't accept that. Changing your clothes after you get home from work doesn't 'make' you anything, except you.

I'll just clarify how a woman thinks because it wasn't answered. This morning I thought;
Gosh those seagulls are noisy
I need a wee
Have I got time to go back to sleep
I hope I don't need a filling when I get to the dentist
Whats on the news this morning?
Do I fancy tea or coffee?
Those are my laydee thoughts this morning. I hope this has helped.

I usually lurk on these threads because although I know in my heart that it will go that same way it always does, I always carry a glimmer of hope that the OP will bring us some startling revelation that has never appeared on a previous thread.

Never happens though, does it? Just more bullshit about “feeling like a woman” and how authentic their life is.

Why do you think men (allegedly) assault transwomen using the men’s bathroom)?

Identifying and addressing the root cause of this would generally be supported by women I imagine.

The op is the same size as a couple of men I know. And DS (14) I’m bigger but they have more strength than i do. I cannot out lift, run or wrestle either.

It’s about muscle, lung capacity and - I don’t know how to say it but ‘power’ - they seem more ‘solid’ to my more ‘soft’ body.

I'm afraid I find the concept of "thinking like a woman" as hard to grasp as the concept of "thinking like an Asian person".

Do you think I as a woman have the right to request a biological female nurse do a Pap smear or do I have to say yes to a biological male says they thinks like a woman?

I was assaulted at 8, my mother saw a male penis at 9 as she was 'flashed' at.

All my life I have understood that as a female I have a hole that can be penetrated, against ain't my will. My two close friends have been raped as young women, another friend was sexually assaulted at 16 on the day of her maths exam. You have said you have not been raised as a woman and cannot understand this intrinsic knowledge that as a girl I was at risk.

I respect your rights in many,many ways but the current ideology around trans destroys mine.

I wondered if you had seen websites such as terfisaslur or oeaktrans or transcrime and see if you can equate the threat and abuse you have experienced with what is happening to women now and how we have always lived with threats and misogyny and what as women we should do about it?

I also wondered if you felt that the new ideology and #nodebate principle of this issue is something you identify with, as you were born in the 70's and whether you consider yourself to be part of this 'movement'?

Hmmmm.

Interesting topic.

The assumption that women here just need educating is particularly fascinating to me. Does it ever occur that we’re perfectly well informed, but just disagree? If transwomen are so because they think like women, then we, as women, surely already have all the insight we need, because we think the same. We should be on the same page, with our matching feminine essences.

Odd that it doesn’t seem to work that way, and there are such swathes of women who need to be (re) educated about how women think.

Hey, op, I wish you all the best in life, but knowing more about your individual circumstances won’t change my mind about what women’s rights are.

Thinking about it now, my ‘lady thoughts’ I think are generally about trying to keep everyone in the family happy with their needs met, trying to work out the most efficient way of getting stuff organised etc. Whereas it seems like the transgender perception of lady thoughts is about clothing and appearance but is ultimately and very clearly about making oneself happy above everyone else, which is at odds with what a lot of women are doing and thinking day in day out.

I do know that I, and other woman are more kind generally. Less likely to control others

hmmmm

Very interested in woman thoughts. I will ask DH what his man thoughts are and compare them to my woman thoughts. They are certainly not like the movies portray woman thoughts. I might shock DH. Pretty sure one of my first woman thoughts this morning was whether the dog had his worming tablet or not.
Anyhoo why do you think your feelings are more important than women's safety? Do you believe in trans race? Trans age? Trans species ?

My first ‘lady thoughts’ this morning was ‘have I got nits???’ Followed by ‘did I remember to lock up coffee yesterday?’. DH may well have been thinking the same thing - shock!

I know you engage with this forum in good faith Bespin, but I think you, and Indigo9 are missing the point, when women here ask for a definition of woman which is subject to practical proof for the sake of policy and legislation.

Women have fought for, specific rights and suffered from, specific oppressions, on the basis of their biological reality. That’s not about feeling like a woman, that’s about the material reality of the female body.

If men are making the claim that they are really women, in order to enter female spaces and take up female spaces, (in rape crisis centres, in women’s sports, on short lists and prizes and hospital wards, for example), then it seems reasonable, indeed overwhelmingly sensible, to be able to identify and measure the quality which makes a man a female person in law.

If women are to experience the incursion their f men, who believe they are women, into their spaces, most often to the detriment of women, then their needs to be evidence, other than an immaterial and immeasurable, innate sense of womanhood.

While I am willing to concede that there are men, for whatever reason of mental health or biological quirk, who truly believe they are, in a spirit although not embodiment, female, there is currently no way to differentiate those men, from the perverts, the dangerous or the just plain weird, who are willing to use this legal framework to force women out of their hard-won spaces; physical, professional, economic or health.

So the question about defining a woman is entirely pertinent and has never been satisfactorily answered.

Women don’t care if men want to wear the accoutrement of conventional feminine stereotypes, we really don’t.

Women care about those legal and moral protections which have been enacted because of those social oppressions which are universally experienced by those inhabiting a body which is biologically female.

We care about 16 year old girls who can no longer be competitive in the sports they have trained long and hard for; or the violated women who can no longer trust in a male-free space in a shelter; or a Muslim woman who can no longer swim in the women-only pool session; or the old woman who can no longer ensure that her intimate personal care is done by another woman.

So until you can answer this central question in a rational way which is testable and replicable, we’re going to keep asking. Women should not have to give way to men, yet again, on the amorphous basis of a feeling.

There won’t be an answer. A more cynical person may think this thread is screen grab bait.

Whereas it seems like the transgender perception of lady thoughts is about clothing and appearance but is ultimately and very clearly about making oneself happy above everyone else, which is at odds with what a lot of women are doing and thinking day in day out.

This!