Not women only shelters.....

[alwaysreadthelabel]

Sorry for the fail link but just read this and I find it unbelievable that people still don't see the issue with this. Words fail me.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6894599/When-man-called-Mark-locked-threatening-kill-mother-child.html

If a self-identifying trans woman in one of these hostels did assault a woman living there, would there be any kind of legal liability on the part of the hostel given that self-ID isn’t actually law? The hostel must have a duty of care towards its residents surely?

Yes .. absolutely ... especially so, given that the Equality Act contains all the relevant protections to avoid such an event. If the organisation involved chose not to utilise those protections and chose not to make clear to all residents that it was their deliberate choice not to invoke those protections in the full knowledge that all those protections existed and could be utilised.

That is, each organisation would need to make very clear to its female residents that it had chosen not to protect them from the inclusion of any potential male residents .. that the residence was designated as a mixed sex residence rather than single sex. It could even be a breach of contract if the residence is promoted as single sex when it is, in fact, a mixed sex residence.

What would there be then to stop an abuser follow a woman into a shelter and say that they are a trans woman in distress?

By the time they work out what the hell is going on the victim will have fled or been thrown out.

That’s a man
You can’t say that
But it’s a man - I know him
Her
Him - he attacked me
Her
Him - it’s a trick
Her - I won’t tell you again
That’s my ex - he beat me up and threatened my kids
We won’t have any of that here. You need to leave now you hateful bigot...

Unlikely? Ummmm 🤔

Well if we think it won’t happen it always seems to mean it already has

The funding for this particular women's homeless service is specifically contigent on meeting specific needs of vulnerable females.

Jeopordising the vulnerable female service users safety, dignity & privacy is significant here.
It can't maintain its purpose by being mixed sex.

2018 (extract)
"Following a successful funding bid, the East London Women’s Project will deliver specialist accommodation based support in partnership with ELHP, St Mungo’s, Praxis and AVA with an all-female staff team of specialist workers in the project.

Next Steps

The knowledge and expertise within the specialist women’s sector is central to supporting women’s empowerment to move on from their experience of rough sleeping and abuse and stay off the streets.

Joint training initiatives with specialist women’s organisations and rough sleeping service providers, such as training each other to deliver outreach on the streets together. Collaboration across sectors could bring together the expertise of both to address gaps in provision."
www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/Womens+Hidden+Homelessness+01032018092500?open

What would there be then to stop an abuser follow a woman into a shelter and say that they are a trans woman in distress?

Nothing ... and any organisation, like Women's Aid, which promotes itself as a single sex organisation [see it's name] would be liable in law for any harm done. The expectation of Women's Aid is that it is a single-sex organisation when, in fact, it has a policy that is mixed-sex, by virtue of its intent to admit male transitioners. Women's Aid deliberately chooses to avoid invoking the protections for females embedded in the Equality Act, which make it lawful to exclude males who claim to have transitioned and even those who have a GRC. [A simple check of the Birth Certificate can ascertain the status and even then the Equality Act permits exclusion.] Women's Aid needs to make it explicit that it operates mixed-sex services and facilities so that all females who wish to avoid such services and facilities have the choice to avoid using them for their own safety, wellbeing, privacy and dignity, in accordance with their human rights.

Lisa Muggeridge talked about institutional failure and statutory responsibility and how the collapse of institutions would be exposed because of their statutory responsibilities.

I should have added that the Equality Act defines woman as a female of any age [see section 212].

So, for Women's Aid to operate a policy of mixed sex services and facilities is perhaps problematic.

Someone above said institutional failure, it is. Not only to women but their traumatised kids too.
I grew up in a home with DV, my mum never left but it chills me to think there will be children whose mums do escape violent men only to be faced with biological males in a supposed safe space. My personal experience was the violence was accompanied with psychological abuse. It beggars belief that the misogynists forcing these changes through, have not stopped for one second to think of the impact this will have on already traumatised kids. Their reality will be retriggering of trauma that forces you to tiptoe around biological males and accept their views above all else. No escape. Ffs.

What jacky said.

'single sex' - as in what any normal straight off the street person would expect in common usage language is the definition most likely to hold up in court.

If an organisation aimed at vulnerable people who are more likely to be of low educational level, this is even stronger as an argument.

Having in small print or not on all communications that the service is mixed sex leaves charities exposed to a legal issue.

The trouble is, such cases are rarely going to be held up by a case where a woman challenges it - they won't have the means and ability to, plus the system is held in sway of its own bullshit.

Also abused women are not terribly high on the social hierarchy.

I fear it will probably take something like a death, and maybe a death of someone who is middle class in status, or of a child for the whole thing to fall apart. But given the nature of those involved that's not an unlikely scenario.

It will be seized upon by the right wing media too. And it will shake the left.

Yossarian22

Indeed .. and when you think that organisations like Women's Aid and all other services that claim to support females are engaging in gaslighting of those females by being mixed sex services and facilities, the abuse of females by these organisations is horrendous!

Maybe all those organisations that use the word "Women" should change their name to "People"?

Jacky Actually I think those organisations should be stripped of their status, enabling this means they are not fit for purpose. Am sure it won’t happen though and lessons will be learnt platitudes will be rolled out in years to come , alongside the obligatory ‘look at how sad and shocked we are’ faces.

maybe a death of someone who is middle class in status

I'm afraid so. The women these services are for are often leading chaotic lives and, you know, when they die everybody blames them anyway. And nobody cares.

Maybe what Women's Aid and similar organisations need to do is make it very explicit on their web sites, in all their promotional materials and in all their related organisational premises that they admit men in the same spaces as women and their children and that they therefore have no means of protecting any women from the possibility of her abuser entering the premises to find her.

Simpler to just drop the Wo and be done with. If they continue with the acceptance of biological males in what is supposedly a safe space they are only aiding the abuse of women and continuing harm towards children.
Personally I don’t care how they serve it up with cries of tolerance and kindness. Domestic violence shelters should be there to support vulnerable women and children not the whims of the woke.

I'm afraid so. The women these services are for are often leading chaotic lives and, you know, when they die everybody blames them anyway. And nobody cares.

Yep it needs stressing.

Its been telling how all these stabbing have been happening, and its been widely reported as being 'a very bad thing' but not much had happened.

Then there was a total mood change the weekend a very nice girl, who was a good student and model scout who had been to Buckingham Palace, died and a boy was killed in Hale Barns. I mean Hale Barns. Sorry thats Hale Barns that every politician really seemed to wake up and the media went into overdrive.

Maybe what Women's Aid and similar organisations need to do is make it very explicit on their web sites, in all their promotional materials and in all their related organisational premises that they admit men in the same spaces as women and their children and that they therefore have no means of protecting any women from the possibility of her abuser entering the premises to find her.

Would women use them at all if they did that? Would they get any donations if they did?

Yossarian22

I think the point is that the Equality Act [in section 212] is explicit in its definitions:

man = male of any age
woman = female of any age

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 is very clear that it creates a Legal Fiction when a Gender Recognition Certificate is granted because it recognises that no human can ever change sex [see GRA 2004 sections: 12, 15, 16, 19 and 20].

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

Returning to the Equality Act 2010, it contains all the necessary protections for females to avail themselves of single sex female only spaces, services, advancement schemes and sports and not even a male with a GRC can change this.

The test is prescribed as: a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

In the context of human rights the legitimate aim is the safety, wellbeing, privacy and dignity of females.

The proportionate means is a blanket ban on all males, however they express themselves and regardless of a GRC, from entering any female only space, service, advancement scheme or sport.

Thanks Jacky ,the current stance has to be a funding issue, their report for 2018 includes the contributors as Big Lottery Fund, London Council, Twitter UK.
Can’t help thinking money talks and the poor pay the price

And Yoss, if that "funding issue" motivates breaches of law, we need to raise awareness of such behaviours, I think. That "funding issue" discriminates against females in the exercise of their legal entitlement to access single sex female only spaces, services, advancement schemes and sports.

Thanks sawdustformypony I couldn't help it, I have wanted an excuse to type that for ages

Excellent article.

Before we know it, womens refuge will revert to how it was before it gained charity status. In our homes and on our terms.

Not sure if anyone has seen this:

Women’s Aid responded to the Mail on Sunday’s article from Sunday 7th April 2019:

“East London Women’s Project is homeless accommodation run by the homeless charity St Mungo’s Community Housing Association. Although it supports women with homelessness who may have experienced gender-based violence, it is not a specialist domestic abuse refuge.

“Women’s Aid is a federation of 180 member organisations and as such we do not have oversight or set policy for member services who run domestic abuse support services like refuges locally. At Women’s Aid, we are committed to supporting our member services on developing their own policies to provide safe, inclusive and accessible services that operate in line with the law. Currently, Women’s Aid member services assess every survivor, including trans women, on a case by case basis in order to best respond to their needs.”

For more information, please contact the Women’s Aid press office: 020 7566 2511 / [email protected]

www.womensaid.org.uk/womens-aid-responds-to-the-mail-on-sundays-article/

Obviously its sad that they dont feel they can take a lead, but on the other hand it is important that each service / local refuge should be self governing.

But it is worth remembering that the concept of refuges is now over 40 years old. And during that time, however sad it might be to acknowledge it, it was really only between 1968 and 1978 that what is now called radical feminism, but then was Women's Liberation held influence in terms of analysing and offering solutions to women facing male discrimination and violence.

Since then through the back lash against autonomous women's organising, those principles and shared values have been eroded.

So no doubt funding pressures (mission drift) have contributed to the abandoning of women based services, but also, unfortunately more and more women employed or volunteering in women's projects have been through the queer analysis process at university etc., and they do not see any problem with what were sex based services, been corrupted into gender identity services.

And such is the strength of the back lash against women's liberation, peddled by the media, that women who talk about how it was originally etc., are just dismissed, not only by the media but many younger women.

And of course this promotion of identity over the reality of sex based reality serves the purposes of funders etc., who are only too happy to fund generic services (housing associations have been huge beneficiaries of DV funding) on the basis that large organisation are more financial stable and "better run". Which means localy based, services reflective of the community in which they are based loose out.

In a similar way that the Tampon Tax funding has been set up to inevitably exclude smaller specialist women run services. www.theguardian.com/money/2019/apr/07/tampon-tax-women-charities-urge-government-to-ring-fence-cash

Petition www.change.org/p/women-s-resource-centre-payback-the-tampon-tax-to-women-s-charities

Currently, Women’s Aid member services assess every survivor, including trans women, on a case by case basis in order to best respond to their needs.”

Note their needs
The impact on other women (adult females) of admitting a male transperson into refuge services is not the focus of 'individual assessment' / 'case by case risk assessment' etc

The impact on other women (adult females) of admitting a male transperson into refuge services is not the focus of 'individual assessment' / 'case by case risk assessment' etc

The problem with this "case-by-case" thinking with regard to male "transitioners" is that it immediately dismisses single-sex services to the status of mixed-sex.

Women's Aid really does need to study the Equality Act 2010 thoroughly, including all the Explanatory Notes and the Schedules so that it can learn why its position here in relation to male transitioners is failure to uphold that law.

The legitimate aim is the safety, wellbeing, privacy and dignity of females.

The proportionate means is a blanket ban on all males, regardless of how they express themselves, in any single sex spaces, services, advancement schemes and sports.

The law allows for this. It is not discriminatory in any way according to the Equality Act.

case by case basis in order to best respond to their needs

And what of course is missing from that statement is how do refuges respond to competing needs when an assessment may show that a trans woman demands to be accepted as a woman, but women survivors say their needs will best be met by (natal) women only services.

As I understand it many rape crisis centres have similarly moved from their original concept and WA in Scotland and Wales it is now official policy to include trans women.

And faced with funding cuts (worth remembering the impact of EAVES loosing their funding to provide services to women who had been sex trafficked into the UK to the Salvation Army ) I am sure many committed refuge workers think better to have some support for women than none at all. Some councils have stopped funding refuges and just said there are homeless hostels that women escaping domestic violence can move into!!!!!!!!!!

In an ideal world we should all form local support groups for women's services and help them mobilise against the threat of funding cuts or even up our skills and join the management committee to provide the framework where women only service are seen as the norm.

I wonder what happened to the survey Women's Aid did of their members (ie local refuges) as to providing services to trans women.

Or maybe like MWR on finding there is no shared position (a bit like Brexit) they can only agree on a core aim of providing services to survivors of domestic violence.