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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Vine, R2 13 yr old trans girl on next (Friday 15/03)

226 replies

NellieEllie · 15/03/2019 12:17

About to start I think.....

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 15/03/2019 14:02

Most kids and teens think it’s a joke

They say it’s the attention seekers

littlbrowndog · 15/03/2019 14:04

None of them believ3 that another kid can change sex

Kids are not stupid

NellieEllie · 15/03/2019 14:05

But the professors evidence about the 80% came over loud and strong with just the counter that “every young trans person is adamant they won’t “ detransition. Well, obviously. I was adamant about great deal of stuff at 13. You change. The brain is undergoing huge changes in puberty.

OP posts:
pearlkent · 15/03/2019 14:08

Why is Susie Green seen as such an expert on the medical issues, over and above the actual medical experts? JV asked a medical question (clearly directed at the prof) and SG jumped straight in to answer - luckily (amazingly) JV stopped her and let the prof answer.
SG said puberty blockers have been used safely for years for precocious puberty (she quoted a girl starting her periods at age 4), so what's the problem giving them to trans kids? The prof countered by the (obvious) difference that, in the case of precocious puberty the blockers are stopped when the child reaches an appropriate age.
Why are the BBC so entranced by SG??

ColdFingered · 15/03/2019 14:10

I was really impressed by the clear answers of the prof, particularly getting in about the precocious puberty being different. He was clear and logical, but wasn't given enough airtime. A whole segment with the family plus SG, against his short piece.

WeRiseUp · 15/03/2019 14:10

Is the mum religious?

I think both parents were church-going Catholics before their kid took over and started running the family. The dad was the only one to mention it though.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 15/03/2019 14:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pearlkent · 15/03/2019 14:12

Yes NellieEllie - and asking the kid if they would ever change their mind, and they said 100% not. Then the listeners phoning in and saying how stunning and brave, and it's all OK because the 13 year-old was 100% sure. I mean FFS!!! They are 13 years old!

WeRiseUp · 15/03/2019 14:14

Then the listeners phoning in and saying how stunning and brave

Or did Helen Webberly and Susie Green send out a memo to their converts to send in supportive comments?

SleepingSloth · 15/03/2019 14:14

Not what I've heard. I think that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation

Maybe, just going on what I see from teens I know. It's no big deal to them, they just ask a few questions and then move on.

They say it’s the attention seekers

I've never heard that said but maybe some think that and maybe some are.

None of them believ3 that another kid can change sex

Agreed. That's why it's trans gender. Kids I know seem to see gender as a real thing. The world is changing and I think will look very different in 20/30 years.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 15/03/2019 14:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WeRiseUp · 15/03/2019 14:15

I was really impressed by the clear answers of the prof, particularly getting in about the precocious puberty being different.

Yes.

This would have been unthinkable 6 months ago.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 15/03/2019 14:16

Most kids and teens think it’s a joke

They say it’s the attention seekers

That's been my experience, too.

WeRiseUp · 15/03/2019 14:18

my comment was more about the fervency and certainty I felt.

It is an interesting and fairly consistent characteristic of human nature - one which is well understood by the world's psychopathic machiavellIan bastards.

LangCleg · 15/03/2019 14:32

Because most kids, teenagers don't think of it as gender ideology or nonsense. I suppose it's their world in the future, not ours and if they are accepting of trans people, it's their choice.

Rubbish. Both my kids and all their friends, except for one who's a bit Woke, consider the Woke to be the Wanker Tribe. In their minds, it's a "too cool for school" thing and to be avoided at all costs.

Fazackerley · 15/03/2019 14:34

Because most kids, teenagers don't think of it as gender ideology or nonsense. I suppose it's their world in the future, not ours and if they are accepting of trans people, it's their choice

My daughters are very cross about transwomen in women's sport.

Fazackerley · 15/03/2019 14:36

The bravery thing really sticks in my craw. I can think of lots of 13 year olds in challenging circumstances that really ARE brave. This is not brave.

R0wantrees · 15/03/2019 14:46

Why is Susie Green seen as such an expert on the medical issues, over and above the actual medical experts?

May 2018 James Kirkup Spectator:
'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'
(extract)
"Despite its influence, it is worth noting what Mermaids is not. It is not a research body. Its activities are support (for families) and advocacy: based on its contacts with those families, it argues for what it sees are better policies and practices by the NHS and others. It does not carry out or commission clinical or academic research. Its most recent annual report lists among its charitable activities “campaigning and advocacy” and says: “Mermaids has also become more active in lobbying”.

There is regular dialogue between Mermaids and the GIDS, but the two sides do not always agree. An example is on the time the GIDS team take to give referred children the hormone-blocking drugs that stop their bodies developing the physical characteristics associated with their birth sex.

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

& this is in current context of safeguarding issues being raised by professionals about the appropriateness of affirming care at Tavistock GIDS:

OP EweSurname wrote:

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/governor-quits-blinkered-tavistock-clinic-82db7wzq8

A governor of the NHS trust that runs England’s only gender clinic for children has resigned in protest at its “blinkered” and “one-sided” response to doctors who had raised the alarm about “woefully inadequate” care.

Marcus Evans, a consultant psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman trust with three decades’ experience, told The Sunday Times that the trust had said things that were “not true”, had created a “climate of fear” and was trying to “dismiss or undermine” concerns raised by its own clinicians.

Some openly homophobic parents pushed their children to transition because they were gay, the report said. In other cases, youngsters seized on transition as a “solution” after abuse or bereavement. Their histories were not properly explored by clinicians struggling with “huge and unmanageable caseloads” and afraid of being accused of transphobia if they questioned the “rehearsed” surface presentation.

The report said Gids had tried to “placate” lobby groups such as the Mermaids charity, which campaigns for children to be given sex-change treatment."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3515980-Times-article-Governor-quits-blinkered-Tavistock-clinic

Roomba · 15/03/2019 14:56

My teenage son and his friends are strong believers that whilst everyone should be treated with respect and courtesy, science actually exists and it is impossible to change sex. They see it as attention seeking and mental illness tbh. They are pretty 'woke' about a lot of things, but not this.

Thingybob · 15/03/2019 14:58

Ditto Fazakerley. Other (ordinary) kids seem to be getting eclipsed by the trans brigade no matter what challenges they face.

Popchyk · 15/03/2019 15:04

There seems to be a real theme of conservative parents (often who follow religions that frown on homosexuality) believing that their children who do not conform to lazy gender stereotypes are actually transgender. As noted in the Bell Report mentioned by R0wan upthread.

You'd think that people like Owen Jones, Stonewall and the like might have a dim view of that. But no, they are all for this gay conversion therapy.

SleepingSloth · 15/03/2019 15:14

Rubbish. Both my kids and all their friends, except for one who's a bit Woke, consider the Woke to be the Wanker Tribe. In their minds, it's a "too cool for school" thing and to be avoided at all costs.

Wanker Tribe. Nice. Hmm

I suppose it depends on parents views on it. If parents are outspoken and are putting a lot of effort into being vocal about it being nonsense, their kids will probably follow, either because they genuinely agree or are possibly scared to disagree. We don't discuss it much, just as and when things come up.

My daughters are very cross about transwomen in women's sport

Theres definitely conversations to be had and rules need looking at. My kids are too busy on YouTube or whatsapp to be cross about it, the busy lives of teens and tweens. 🙄😂

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 15/03/2019 15:27

That the thing with the genderist ideas. If you don't think about it and just go along with the flow, it seems fine.

Lots of teenagers are capable and do think about these things, though, and see it for the nonsense that it is.

There are some cleaver teenagers out there that do think about sport, women's rights and gendered stereotypes.

VickyEadie · 15/03/2019 15:32

My daughters are very cross about transwomen in women's sport

Theres definitely conversations to be had and rules need looking at. My kids are too busy on YouTube or whatsapp to be cross about it, the busy lives of teens and tweens

I have family members who are elite teenage sportswomen. They're fucking furious that people are actually pushing for boys to be able to compete with them.

LangCleg · 15/03/2019 15:33

Wanker Tribe. Nice.

That's kids for you. They do tribes. Fashion tribes. Sports team tribes. Music tribes. Kids do tribes. The Woke tribe in these 'ere parts is tiny.

I suppose it depends on parents views on it. If parents are outspoken and are putting a lot of effort into being vocal about it being nonsense, their kids will probably follow, either because they genuinely agree or are possibly scared to disagree. We don't discuss it much, just as and when things come up.

Of course you don't, dear. And of course, it's impossible to conceive that young people can form an opinion of their own if they have dreadful strident mothers. What a terrible thought. Your slip's showing.