How to get school to back off.

[mouseymummy]

My 14yo dd is struggling to figure out where she fits in at the moment, she's more of a "tomboy" but will happily put on a playsuit and leggings etc etc.... You know. Usual stuff kids go through as they try to figure out what they like and suits them.

However, she's been hanging around with a girl who wants to transition, her parents are very vocal about it all and buying her a binder and demanding her school etc refer to her as her "true name" as well as other things.

I've explained to my dd that you can be a woman and wear jeans and a flannel shirt, get your hair cut short etc... I'm always wearing jeans and tees. I wear "work boot" style boots as they're comfy and I have a condition that causes my joints to be loose so they're practical too. I've explained that you can be whoever you want to be. She's just not understanding how you can be just yourself. She's very much falling into stereotypes and saying how I dress dd6 in dresses etc... Thus is what she chose when getting dressed that morning, she had jeans on the day before.

School is not helping this.

They've told me that I'm "damaging her" by refusing to take her to the doctors and persueing a "transition" she's 14! I'm seriously waiting for a phone call to social services for not taking her to the doctor as its apparently "emotional abuse" ffs.

Ive ok'd her getting her hair cut short and we went shopping a couple of weeks ago for her to get some clothes she felt comfortable in, she chose leggings, a couple of pairs of jeans, a hoodie and a couple of slogan tees from the mens section in primark (they have a lot better slogan style tees than the women's section)

She's asked for a binder and I've refused. This has all started since school told her she could (her exact quote) "become a proper boy and do all the boy stuff" I asked her what is "boy stuff" she had no answer.

Schools safeguarding team (yes, really) rang me to tell me that they will be referring to her as her "boy name" and when I call up I will have to say I'm the parent of said boy. When I questioned this and asked if they had found anyone else with parental responsibility to OK this as I hadn't (they don't have her dad's number as we're not together and he works away so wouldn't be able to collect her in an emergency) they responded with no but this is what they do when a kid comes and "officially self identifies".

OK, if my kid decides when she's older to crack on n transition, fine, I'll support and be there.

But at 14???? I refuse to be part of it until she is better prepared in life and actually understand what the processes entails etc.

What can I do here??

mouseymummy so glad to read your update on the social worker and your daughter's father. Even though this is stressful and upsetting, you've handled this very well and kept talking to her throughout without giving in to the school's bullying .

Your daughter sounds a lot as if she's like many of us were going through puberty. A bit grossed out by it all, looking at the boys who don't have to deal with any of this and becoming increasingly aware of living in a world dominated by men. No wonder so many girls would prefer to opt out of that.

I wonder who these girls look at and think ‘I’m going to be like him when I’m a man’?

Well I went into Waterstones in Bath last year and the most prominently displayed book in the teen section was the Alex Bertie one.
I find it really sinister, the grooming of our children into this belief system/cult.
The pathologising of personality.

I can't blame girls wanting to be men when you see all the sexist shit they have to put up with. Who wouldn't like to join the patriarchy at least for a bit.

But OP is she also has behavioural issues is there any chance she is on the spectrum? There is a suspicion that a lot of transitioning girls are undiagnosed ASD.

And if you really want to put her off find the article about the true effects of Testosterone on female orgasm.

Oh come on - I was a teenager in the 80s so there was a lot worse sexism there. There were a lot fewer decent female role models for girls, and women in the media and films were usually dumb eye candy.

I was an anti-dolly bird - I shaved my hair and wore DMs and men’s jeans (or DMs and ball gowns to class). No one ever suggested that I must be suffering internal gender trauma therefore should be shot full of testosterone and have my boobs lobbed off (I would have told them to f-off).

Dear mouseymummy

We have had this exact same situation: our (then) 12 year old ASD gender non-conforming daughter has been seen exclusively through a trans prism by her school, to the extent that the school allowed her to make a public announcement of a name change without even telling us beforehand. One of her teachers had even offered her advice about what name to choose. They then asked us if we would give our blessing to the teachers calling her this name and we told them, in no uncertain terms, no. Their head of safeguarding then told me that I was putting my child in a difficult situation. Her teacher suggested she start attending a group for trans teenagers, the section head told us she was "on a journey". etc. Even more than a year later, we recently encountered a teacher still using the male name and, when we asked him not to, he told us that the school had told him it was the right thing to do.

Strangely enough, the Mermaids website ended up being helpful, because it pointed us towards the most trans-affirmative legal advice we could possibly get. If we were following their advice, then surely nobody could fault us?

They recommend a 'trans law' firm of solicitors called BenHoareBell, who have a page of advice on name changes at school:

www.benhoarebell.co.uk/change-name-without-consent/

The NSPCC has a safeguarding factsheet on gillick competence and there's a fair bit of info online about it. Your safeguarding person will surely want to follow the safeguarding advice of the NSPCC, right?

Essentially, a 14 year old wouldn't normally be considered gillick competent, and therefore the school is not conforming with the law in insisting on the name. The Gillick test was designed to help society know when to get parents to but-out of their children's lives, but equally it serves to protect children from being unduly influenced by adults to make decisions they're not ready for. Crucially, gillick competence requires not only that the child understands the decision, but takes the decision voluntarily. If there are teachers and other trusted adults pressing for the name-change, it could be that the voluntariness wouldn't be present - the child's ownership of the name change decision is questionable. Of course, there are inherent power imbalances in pupils' relationships with staff, and it is easy for trusted adults to shape young minds.

In our case, we were also clear with the school that our daughter's gender questions were a sign of distress and confusion and cited an autism specialist's opinion that when autistic children identify as a member of the opposite sex it's a sign that they feel they are somehow defective. Not something to celebrate and consolidate. Adults using the male name were implementing a 'psychosocial treatment' that would increase the chances that this confusion would not resolve itself. This is taken from a recent journal article by Ken Zucker, a world expert on trans psychology:

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2018.1468293?journalCode=wijt20

We wrote to the safeguarding person asking him to confirm if we'd understood the law surrounding name changes correctly; and if so, please would he follow gillick competence which is a basic safeguarding tool.

My dc would not be returning to that school and poor toxic led friend would not be visiting.

I would be calling a lawyer.

Periods can be dealt with by a GP prescribing the pill.

FGM is a crime. Binders are breast ironing which is FGM.

This is the absolute worst time for a child of her age to get sucked into this, the powers that be are awash with woke bullshit and there are at least a couple of years until the dangers of medicalisation become mainstream knowledge and are acted upon.

If you were to suddenly be offered a job with immediate start that requires a big distance move for your family that would be a very helpful immediate stalling solution. Make the space for watchful waiting, don't underestimate the stupidity of all children's services right now. The transideology emphasis (taught to all child related professionals) is on building barriers around children and isolating them, it is abusive and cultish. This sounds mad it's because it is. There is no logic, you will struggle to make yourself heard and could find yourself in a toxic war over your child's health with your role as parent completely undermined.

www.transgendertrend.com/
wgscotland.org.uk/

Hulo how did you hear about www.piqueresproject.com/#

Gosh archery, in extremely helpful post. I'm sorry you were forced to go through all that; huge credit to you for doing so. It must have been so distressing and frustrating on top of everything autism presents. Thank you for sharing that info.

In our case, we were also clear with the school that our daughter's gender questions were a sign of distress and confusion and cited an autism specialist's opinion that when autistic children identify as a member of the opposite sex it's a sign that they feel they are somehow defective.

Which specialist was this? Zucker or someone else?

Wish the bloody NAS would recognise this.

That's an excellent explanation of Gillick competency Archery2 It explains something I saw, I can't remember the precise details but it was something from Canada that they are fearful of going down the Gillick competency test as it means they won't be able to get children so young. Or something along those lines.

I just wanted to say how much I admire you and the way you are handling this. I'm a secondary teacher who would be on your side if this were my school. It may be useful for you to know that Kiri Tunks, current president of the NUT/NEU (teachers union) is a founder member of A Woman's Place and I imagine would be very supportive of your stance, although she is in an awkward position as the stated policy of the NUT as voted in conference supports self id.

That's extremely interesting archery2. I am continually alarmed that some schools even contemplate this action without fully contemplating the legal side of this including Gillick competency being essential.

Much as I hate talking about suing anyone - especially schools - a school 'transing a child' without any discussion with parents is the most extreme form of professional arrogance and exceptionally dangerous for that child in every way. Someone needs to make an example of a school like this.

LordPro I was a teenager in the 70s 80s, and yes there was a lot of casual sexism, however it was pretty widely acknowledged that it was around. We got cat called in the street but equally would tend to be cheered if we called people out on it.
Girls were under less pressure to be polite. Boundaries were for testing.
Nowadays there is a lot of gender role conformation. Just stand outside a girls school: the girls coming out will be far better groomed than we were in our day, and 99% will have long swishy hair! In our day short hair was perfectly acceptable, and girls who like science/engineering were pioneers not "maybe boys".

I think the turning point was ‘girls lego’

I think the turning point was ‘girls lego’

A couple of women tried to explain that to me about 8-10 years ago. I was very dismissive

I remember feeling utter revulsion about my body as a teen, when I suddenly developed. It’s so worrrying this trans stuff confusing puberty. What worries me most for teens is the impact to their potential child bearing ability - I didn’t think about children and having them until I was in my late 20s, it would be awful if I’d made decisions as a teen or young adult that prevented biological parenthood.

It’s not a point I’d have cared about under the age of about 25 though.

I posted some pictures of teenagers and young adults from the 50s-late 00s on the BBC thread last night. It’s amazing how much MORE gendered everything has become.

First pic on page 7 , most on page 8:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3524640-Bloody-hell-BBC?pg=7

I was a teenager in the 60s and 70s.
There was a lot of sexism, but it seemed targeted at adult women more than children.

Women had to fight sexism in the workplace and it was difficult to follow some career paths. Women were discouraged from certain jobs, or it was almost impossible to progress in them.

Now the sexism is aimed at children. Their own peers provide a much more hostile environment than we had back then. I don't remember other children telling me what I was allowed to wear or do in the same way as very young children do now. There were no gendered toys. One of us got Lego and we all played with it. There was no sneering about who is allowed to play or who has to play with pink Lego.

Do you think consumer marketing is a lot to do with it? When I was little, you couldn’t go to the supermarket and see 20 princess dresses, there weren’t hundreds of films about fairies, princesses etc.

I’m sure the proliferation of consumer goods in genealogy and marketing of them is bolstering these stereotypes.

I loved Lego, it never occurred to me it was for boys

I can honestly say I grew up without ever dressing up as a princess or dreaming of being one. I was always a witch.

And we had tonnes of Lego and Meccano

For years LEGO tried to sell girls-themed LEGO and it fell flat. Time after time. But their most recent attempt, the Friends theme launched in 2012, has been a notable success. Something had changed in society to enable this success.

Part I of a 4 part article.

No, I never dreamt that Lego would be considered a toy for a boy. I loved it, and my children both had loads of it.

My brother did get some Meccano and I didn't, but I probably played with it more than he did in the guise of 'helping' him out. Nobody thought I was odd for enjoying playing with it.

A lot of damage has been done by consumer marketing pushing the idea that all toys are gendered and no toy should be seen as suitable for everyone.

Even balls are seen as boy's toys! Balls are used as a component of many games and sports, which any child and adult can enjoy.

the adverts showing girls in fancy dresses playing with dollies etc - I feel like that about the tv shows too - so many programmes that are nearly all pink hues in colour and showing princess/fairy/wings etc, with very restrictive and repetitive stories.