Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

*Semenya, sorry - not Semenyer

Have you got a link OP? I thought Caster's condition(s) hadn't been made public. It is hard to form an opinion without having the facts.

It was on BBC news this morning, but will see if I can find a link about it.

I think it’s very complicated, they are now saying she has internal testes, which means that she is a victim of her location & circumstances. Had she been born somewhere richer there would have been investigations into why she was not going through female puberty, presumably a vaginal ultrasound would have revealed her situation sooner. Because her athletic prowess led her out of poverty there was no need to question her lack of periods, those around her would have thought she was training too hard to get them and so not worried. She was clearly well nourished or she wouldn’t have built up her muscle.

It’s a very difficult situation.

I think the primary question to be answered is whether Semenya is genetically male or female. If she is genetically female, then the decision is much more tricky IMO.

BBC article:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/athletics/47244017

This is an older article but interesting take on the race politics involved:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/testosterone-ruling-women-athletes-caster-semanya-global-south

If successful, does that mean that women will be allowed to artificially increase their testosterone levels?

Or will the levels only be accepted if naturally occuring?

I gather there was an indepth article/analysis on this in one of the broadsheets - it was cited in another thread as being a really strong piece, but I forgot to save the link.

Can anybody link to this article please?

Found it: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/walsh-caster-semenya-2p377rbvd

She previously had to lower them. This is a return to previous policy. All three winners - bronze silver gold - of one of the races after they changed the rules, were intersex. Is that fair?

I'm not outraged.
I feel sorry for this athlete as her achievements are always going to be overshadowed by the debate around her sex, which is private but incredibly relevant to this matter.
As it seems most probable that she is intersex and is genetically male, despite being brought up as female, the debate is really about whether she should be allowed to compete as a woman and if so, how do you make that fair for the other competitors.
Due to the current climate in gender thinking, for some people this is virtually heresy. (See the Martina thread). But the Governing bodies for sports where physique and power matter are going to have too draw down some lines. Either biology matters, or you make artificial parameters that mimic natural sex based difference.

I feel bad that this particular person has been mucked around so much, but I don’t think it’s correct to say they’re ‘forcing her to take medication’. What’s actually being said is, if you want to compete with females as someone with obvious and biological advantage similar to a male, we are going to enable you to compete but you’ll have to reduce this hormone. That isn’t a snappy as your summary, but it’s more accurate.

This is a really difficult situation, but I don’t think it’s fair on everyone else for her to compete with females, even with reduced testosterone. That’s my opinion. I’m not sure why the conversation is being framed around what is fair just to her, as it really is about fairness to all females in all sports.

We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs...

But we don't segregate sports by leg length whereas we do for sex.

The muscle mass bit; there are sports that segregate by weight e.g. boxing.

From what I gather, males (eg TW) who compete against women are expected to have reduced their testosterone levels to a certain amount, and this amount is still far higher than that would naturally occur in most women, unless the woman has PCOS or another condition leading to high levels of testosterone, and women can indeed dope up to this level without it being detected as they can claim it's natural.

TW and intersex people obviously have advantages over women that aren't only limited you higher testosterone eg a woman with PCOS won't have the same advantages in muscle/bone density or body shape as a TW with the same level of T.

An intersex person shouldn't be forced to take medication as that's highly unethical, and I believe transactivists are also pressurising sports bodies to change the rules which force them onto medicalisation.

I don't think anyone should be forced into hormone treatment. When it comes to sport, no one should be expected to increase or decrease hormones in order to compete. There should be seperate competitions to make it fair. In the absence of seperate actual competitions there should be different winning categories.

AFAIK nobody has actually confirmed Caster's condition and there are a few possible options. As I understand it, one of the most likely is her having internal testes but there are disorders where this can occur where the person has XX and where the person has XY chromosomes. So at the moment we don't actually know if she's technically male or female from a biological perspective

My gut feel is that the rules should be something like:
XY (or any other combination containing a Y)=automatic exclusion from competing as a female
XX or XO = can be considered for competing as a female, but must meet certain criteria. These criteria probably need to be specific to the intersex condition as the impact of testosterone can vary significantly but in essence I think they should be defined that someone with testosterone outwith the normal female range can only compete where it can be demonstrated that the excess testosterone can't be utilised (i.e. androgen insensitivity.)

I think you have to go for the greatest good of the greatest number here. I agree that it isn't coincidence that the 3 800m medal winners who are all alleged to have very high testosterone levels almost certainly due to internal testes are from Africa where antenatal ultrasounds aren't used. We are better at detecting intersex conditions early here.
I think women's sports should be for people without a Y chromosome and with a testosterone level of under 5.
This means some intersex athletes like Caster will lose out but I think the alternative is that women and girls lose out as each country only needs 1 or 2 elite athletes for olympic competition and the people likely to win medals who will have high testosterone levels from puberty that build up masculine levels of muscle mass will be chosen. People with a Y chromosome (as Caster almost certainly has) also have a different shaped pelvis more suited to women.
There are lots of things intersex people can do, but for the ones with Y chromosomes and high levels of testosterone competing in women's competitive sports shouldn't be one of them.

She is intersex- in a competitive sport which categorises by male OR female. (Athletics is not categorised/ segregated by leg length etc- that's why it IS different from that duh.) There is currently no right answer for her, or for her female competitors.

Also have a different shaped pelvis more suited to running" that should have said. Male pelvises are narrower as they don't need to bear children.

I think women's sports should be for people without a Y chromosome and with a testosterone level of under 5.

I agree.

There is no human right to be an elite athlete. Competition must be fair. Some athletes with chronic conditions are not eligible for competition due to the drug regimes they're on. It is what it is.

Unfortunately, Caster has a lifetime of advantages given to her by male levels of testosterone.
By simply asking her to reduce these levels now will totally ignore the physiological advantages which she has over other women who are not intersex.
This is a pretty awful situation for everyone concerned, Caster and the atheletes who she competes against, but I think it is only right to suspend Caster indefinitely from women's sport.

There isn’t even conclusive scientific evidence that increased testosterone does give a competitive advantage in sport. That’s why the IAAF’s ban of Dutee Chand was successfully challenged.

There isn’t even conclusive scientific evidence that increased testosterone does give a competitive advantage in sport.

So why are substances that increase testosterone banned substances then?

LilaJude

"There isn’t even conclusive scientific evidence that increased testosterone does give a competitive advantage in sport."

Is your real name Rachel McKinnon?
Testosterone is the reason why men are heavier, taller, have stronger more dense bone structure, an elevated cardiovascular system, less fat, leaner, stronger muscles, larger heart and lungs.

So why are substances that increase testosterone banned substances then?

Good question, and I don’t know the answer. Clearly the IAAF thinks it makes a different. All I know is that independent studies have failed to show the link that’s being claimed.

I’m not saying testosterone has nothing to do with sporting prowess - just that it’s nowhere near as simple as is being claimed.