Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

Someone said to me the other day that the answer is two categories: women (as in XX)

Maybe a slight tweak to allow for XXX and higher orders.

I agree she has been treated unfairly, in that they haven’t been able to categorise her properly from the start, and privately as well, it must be very hard to be the subject of such intense debate and have your body discussed in this way. But part of me also thinks, if I was in her position and even if socialised as female, would I really not understand the advantage I had over females and would I really want to insist I race them given that obvious advantage? I don’t think I would do what she has done. I do however, try and understand how hard it must be to be in her position. I just don’t think what she’s trying to do, and has done, is good sportsmanship.

Unfortunately, as others have said, sport is binary, and maybe that's what needs to be reconsidered. That would allow the Caster Semanyas and Margaret Wambuis of this world to participate without compromising competition for women. The answer isn't to have two categories which are "men" and "not men".

I'm not clear from that what you think the answer is, though.

There isn’t even conclusive scientific evidence that increased testosterone does give a competitive advantage in sport.
Noooooooooooooo!

Even undergrad sport science can show competitive advantage in male bodies due to testosterone!

Duttee Chand's case was about hyperandrogenism and testosterone... nit picking, but potentially different to male bodies and testosterone.

There needs to be more research into hyperandrogenism and testosterone to quantify an comeptitive advantage. That was the point of science she won on!

There's a bucket load of researching the myriad of differences testosterone accords a male body, competitive advantage included!

The answer isn't to have two categories which are "men" and "not men".

We could consider women and NotWomen couldn't we

This is quite a good article on it:

www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/feb/18/caster-semenya-testosterone-levels-female-sport-court

I am very sorry for her. The news reoporting around this is very misleading, focusing on testosterone levels as if this is the be all and end all of maleness. If, if, she does have CAIS then testosterone gives her no advantage.

" If, if, she does have CAIS then testosterone gives her no advantage"

Clearly we can rule that out, as if there was no advantage then Caster would not be fighting tooth and nail to avoid reducing testosterone levels.

This is being discussed on Jeremy Vine right now (Radio 2)

Sharon Davies is on, talking about her experiences swimming against East German athletes subject to a doping regime. She supports CS being required to suppress her testosterone levels, or supporting against men

The other commentator (missed his name) is horrified at the suggestion that CS should compete against men. (But can't explain why that's unfair on CS but not on the other women athletes )

Worth a listen!

I read an article that analysed the prevalence of CAIS in elite female sport vs incidence in the general population and IIRC it was overrepresented by something like 1500%.
So all evidence points to XY CAIS having major physical advantage over biological women despite the theory that it doesn't.

If I ever find the article again I'll link it here.

Sharon is gender critical by the way - she was a childhood hero of mine, so I'm very glad that she speaks sense now

Did they distinguish between CAIS and PAIS?

I'm listening to Jeremy Vine too (sort of - can't turn it up or listen closely) and - what a surprise - Jeremy 'SO INSPIRING' Vine, who couldn't fall over himself enough to suck up to the late transitioners he had on the other week - is now sneering at the idea of men competing as women.

On the upside, the utter fool who is speaking against Sharon Davies is peak transing another few thousand people. He's of the 'women just need to train harder' school of batshit. (He's a professor of sociology.)

Why are the bbc allowing a Sociologist to speak with authority about biology?? . The guy they just had on just spouted the biggest load of rubbish!

Clearly we can rule that out, as if there was no advantage then Caster would not be fighting tooth and nail to avoid reducing testosterone levels. Well... we can make asumptions but cannot quantify it, nor the prevalance of any advantage.

There's a lot of science to be done - assuming any intersex competitors will agree to be used as test subjects! Cos you can't assume that there will be any significant differences in untrained bodies...

I decided to give JV a miss. I get so bloody angry... no longer certain which is worse, him or Steve Bloody Wright!

I only caught a bit of Jeremey Vine, but yes, gushing as usual over TW.

Why are the bbc allowing a Sociologist to speak with authority about biology?? You can fantasise that it's a subversive element within the JV team, aiming to peak TRA the entire nation

" Well... we can make asumptions but cannot quantify it, nor the prevalance of any advantage."

What do you mean? We can (and have) quantify Caster's testosterone levels.

We can see that in the past Caster performed very poorly when there were testosterone restrictions. And if the testosterone restrictions go ahead we can observe that again (or not, if Caster chooses to retire).

"There's a lot of science to be done - assuming any intersex competitors will agree to be used as test subjects!"

I don't agree tbh. Sample sizes are far too small. Trying to test whether an intersex person who may be in the top 10% of their cohort is faster than someone who is is not intersex but in the top 0.1% is fallacious.

It's not really different to scratching your head and wondering why Laurel Hubbard manages to set all these records. Sure you can do testing and put out crap about reducing testosterone levels, but unless you recognise that people who possess testes producing testosterone which has virilised their bodies since puberty are at an irreversible advantage you won't get far.

Testosterone restrictions are nonsensical and wrong. What makes sense is if people have or ever had testes producing male levels of testosterone, then they should not be competing in female sport.

I think you are missing my point, or have completely misunderstood the point I was making, Mary

The difference between observation and quantifiable science!

I am NOT conflating intersex atheltes and males. Laurel Hubbard is a man, born, raised, trained as a man.

I am NOT applying the data drawn from males to intersex athletes.

I am making NO ASSUMPTIONS about any observable performance other than there is evidence of an advantage in some intersex athletes.

I don't agree tbh. Sample sizes are far too small. Trying to test whether an intersex person who may be in the top 10% of their cohort is faster than someone who is is not intersex but in the top 0.1% is fallacious. I meant that there is much science to be done if any specific inferences can be drawn... and that is further compounded by the likely lack of willing participants! And I have no idea what you mean by that last bit - trained athletes are always faster, stronger, more skilled than untrained individuals!

For some reason you seem to have inverted the meaning in my post... very confusing!

Whilst googling around, i came across this article. Excellent, in my opinion.
www.runnersworld.co.za/advice-opinion/hyperandrogenism-in-sport-the-caster-semenya-debate/

I found the nuanced views of this sensible and articulate scientist, athlete and transwoman really refreshing to read. I'd be fascinated to hear her opinion on transwomen in other sex-segregated arenas in life.

So far all discussion has been about sports people that have grown up with intersex conditions or trans adults. What about (hypothetically) a sports person that transitions as a young child, taking blockers etc at puberty, stopping any physical advantage over women?

There’s also that trans boy wrestler in America who is forced to complete against girls (and subsequently wins everything) - He wants to complete against boys, but isn’t allowed to as he’s considered ‘female’ by birth.

"' If, if, she does have CAIS then testosterone gives her no advantage'

Clearly we can rule that out, as if there was no advantage then Caster would not be fighting tooth and nail to avoid reducing testosterone levels."

Not true, the reduction of testosterone by hormonal means would affect her performance, not through the loss of testosterone but by the new hormones introduced.

People talk as if classifying intersex people into a third (or fourth or fifth) group would be impossibly difficult.

And yet the very basis of fairness in the Paralympics is to classify athletes according to numerous criteria to maintain fairness within classifications.
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/disability-sport/18934366

If we happily accept and understand that levels of ability or impairment vary and classify accordingly in the Paralympics, it's way past due that we do this with intersex and trans athletes.

It's entirely achievable. And a great deal easier to ascertain who is unequivocally female and who has an intersex condition of the variety that offers male physiological advantage.

Most of my thoughts have already been typed by pps but I wanted to chip in and say that CS is a beautiful runner and I've enjoyed watching her compete over the years.

The IAAF should've made a firm decision regarding her situation a long time ago , this would've made things much easier for her and fellow female middle distance runners.

I don't have all of the answers but the IAAF should have something sorted by now.