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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya

999 replies

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 07:50

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

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FeministCat · 04/05/2019 16:07

*are, not ads.

And the only reason it has been made relevant is because Caster’s supported have relied on this “raised as a girl narrative” heavily to justify why it would be unfair to deny her racing with the women without lowering her “natural advantages” (also called testes).

Datun · 04/05/2019 16:08

Exactly. The only reason to look at presentation at all is to counter the notion that it counts as a pass.

Pota · 04/05/2019 16:09

What evidence do you have that Caster sees herself as a man? Oh and the term butch lesbian most definitely was used on here.
There’s a difference between saying she should not be allowed to compete (I don’t agree) and saying that she is a man now and that you can’t bring yourself to use female pronouns to describe her. If she saw herself as a man, presumably she wouldn’t be competing in the women’s category. And I doubt someone born believing they were female would automatically think they were a man just because they found out later that they had a chromosomal disorder.

Barracker · 04/05/2019 16:12

Here is Graham's story. He has pAIS.
Here is Tony's story
And here is Jim's story

They all have pAIS.
Now, I don't know if pAIS is what Semenya has. It's looking fairly likely, but there are other options, like 5 ARD.
Assuming though, that Semenya has pAIS, should Graham, Tony and Jim all have the same opportunity to compete against women?

FeministCat · 04/05/2019 16:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 04/05/2019 16:18

If she saw herself as a man, presumably she wouldn’t be competing in the women’s category.

Don’t presume anything. Regardless of how she saw herself, she’s known she has XY and male advantage at least 10 years. What do you say to that because you seem to be ignoring it. She would of been 18 then.

R0wantrees · 04/05/2019 16:19

And I doubt someone born believing they were female would automatically think they were a man just because they found out later that they had a chromosomal disorder.

Babies aren't born knowing what sex they are.

Interesting thread of recent speech explaining how children come to understand their sex by Katie Alcock (Senior Lecturer in Psychology , Lancaster University)

(she said psychiatrists & medical doctors don't get this training.)

There are several tweets after this one explaining further!

twitter.com/LResisters/status/1122570548549226496

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3551115-Gender-Identity-Safeguarding-Children-and-Young-People-For-Women-Lancashire?pg=2

Datun · 04/05/2019 16:19

From the New Yorker:

Coach Sako said, “a natural.” Even before Semenya left Limpopo for college, in Pretoria, she had won a gold medal in her event at the 2008 Commonwealth Youth Games, in Pune, India, with a time of 2:04 ... “I used to tell Caster that she must try her level best,” Sako said. “By performing the best, maybe good guys with big stomachs full of money will see her and then help her with schooling and the likes. That is the motivation.”

Her own coach:

Sako’s English was fluent but rough, and he frequently referred to Semenya as “he.” “Caster was very free when he is in the male company,” Sako said. “I remember one day I asked her, ‘Why are you always in the company of men?’ He said, ‘No, man, I don’t have something to say to girls, they talks nonsense. They are always out of order.’ ”

Pota · 04/05/2019 16:41

FGS feministcat loads of women say stuff like that- that they don’t get on with other women etc. This is someone whose sex was recorded as Female at birth. Stop calling her he. She is not a man in law and regardless of her chromosomes she was brought up believing herself to be female. Regardless of what you think about competing, having an intersex condition is complex and confusing for the person who has it and deserves sympathy and respect. She has never said that she is a man or prefers male pronouns so why impose those on her?

PlayYouLikeAShark · 04/05/2019 16:49

I've not read through the whole thread so apologies if this has been posted already. This was written by one of the lawyers representing IAAF, a former athlete and a woman.

https://quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/

Datun · 04/05/2019 16:53

*Stop calling her he.

Caster's own coach says he. Not something you would typically do if it was going to lead to your athlete being upset.

BlueberriesAndCream · 04/05/2019 16:54

how the hell would you feel if people now refused to acknowledge that you were a woman at all? She was raised female and presumably has female genitalia.

Absence of male genitalia isn't the same as female, though. It might look ambiguous, particularly as a child.

I agree that she deserves compassion for what is a very difficult situation, and I would also continue to use 'she' unless she says differently. But there are various comments that suggests she doesn't see herself as female and nor does her female partner (who considers herself heterosexual).

Trousering · 04/05/2019 16:59

I don't have much in the way of respect for people that exploit loopholes and laws etc. to take things from others unfairly. The elite status as a female athlete is unearned. It's been acquired by other means.

FeministCat · 04/05/2019 17:02

Has Caster ever told you they prefer female pronouns?

Last time I checked, you don’t get to police what pronouns I use for someone.

Caster does not have female genitalia. They lack properly developed external male genitalia. That is not the same as female genitalia. Did you read those links Barracker provided for you, as they are very good.

If someone called me a man, I would not give a flying duck. I know what I am. I am sure I am not alone - especially amongst those who don’t fit sex stereotypes - in that growing up I was called a boy at least once. You know what, didn’t care then, don’t care now.

eurochick · 04/05/2019 17:11

To add on to what @FeministCat said, Caster is currently competing in the Diamond league. There is big money in this. See here https://www.diamondleague.com/fileadmin/SharedStorage/DocumentStorage/2018/20188DLmediaaguide.pdf (page 4). And that's just prize money. The real £££ is in sponsorships.

FeministCat · 04/05/2019 17:13

PlayYouLikeAShark

Thanks for posting that, it goes much more into the definitions of an “affected athlete” and so on than most and the importance of protecting girls and women’s sports for girls and women in both a broad and very personal (to author) way.

One gem excerpt relevant to this discussion:

And so, when we are told that 46, XY males with DSD who identify as female are no different from us because identity is all that matters, the effect is to erase our deeply significant, sex-specific experience both on and off the track. When we are told these things directly and indirectly by sports governing bodies, we feel betrayed. We also feel robbed: of the spots on the podium; of the psychic, financial, and professional goods that would have flowed from earning our places there; and of the opportunities to be role models for little girls who need to see strong, victorious females so that they can dream big dreams themselves. Social science literature focused on race and sex is replete with empirical evidence supporting the common-sense intuition that it matters that people can see successful role models who look like them. To quote Beyoncé, quoting Marian Wright Edelman: “You can’t be what you can’t see.”

When we are told that 46, XY males with DSD who identify as female are simply “women with hyperandrogenism,” or “women with high T,” we aren’t fooled. We are just puzzled about why others are—or would want to pretend to be. Elite sport is in the business of bodies, what they can do, and how beautiful they are at their fittest. The movement to normalize and empower gender non-conforming people is enormously valuable, but this doesn’t explain why we would want to replace sex with identity in this of all settings, since the effect of this move is not only to erase our distinguishing traits from the conversation, but also—literally—our bodies from the podium.

Finally, when we are told that we are “ignorant” and “racist” when we notice that males with DSD have male secondary sex characteristics, the effect is to denigrate our well-honed, protective instincts and also our intelligence. The truth is that we know secondary sex characteristics well. We watched them develop over the course of our adolescences and, even on the track, we were witness to their effects on our relative performances: At 12 years old, we were the same or sometimes even faster than the boys, but over time, and certainly by age 18, those same boys were unreachable. For those brown girls and women among us—and we are plentiful in the women’s 800—the effect of these charges of ignorance and racism, especially when they are leveled by white people, is itself racist: as though we somehow can’t tell males from females, or as though we all look like men.

Whenever females in the field have dared to express their concerns about these various erasures, Ms. Semenya’s public supporters can be counted on to launch aggressive public attacks, disingenuously charging them with “ignorance,” bigotry and a lack of sportsmanship. The effect for the females in the field is to censor their voices in their own spaces. It is to bully them into a new and ironic subordination: In a setting that was carved out for females so that they would be protected from athletic dominance by males, they are not permitted even to take note of that subordination. If their faces or body language betray even the slightest hint of unease, Ms. Semenya’s supporters pounce with op-eds and Twitter storms loaded with personal attacks. And so, they learn to stand stoic at the end of each race, and to freeze their faces into what they hope is a wholly neutral, inoffensive expression. Some have sought to turn this forced silence and feigned neutrality into evidence that the female field is actually comfortable with the current state of affairs. This effort would be funny if it weren’t so Kafkaesque. As Sarah Ditum wrote in The Economist last year,

[t]here is a word for a situation where women talking about female bodies is considered impermissibly antisocial, where describing the consequences of sexism for women is systematically impeded, where resources for women are redistributed to male users while resources for men are left in male hands, and where “male” and “female” are rigidly associated with masculinity and femininity. That word is not “progressive”, “liberal” or any of the other terms usually associated with trans activism. The word is misogyny.

A particularly misogynistic form of the poor sportsmanship story is that the females in the field who express concern are sore losers who just aren’t as talented as the biologically male athletes who beat them. Ms. Semenya’s supporters were especially vicious to Great Britain’s Lynsey Sharp, who was fifth in the women’s 800 meters final at the Rio Olympics, after she vented her understandable frustration in her post-race press conference. Ignoring the fact that Ms. Sharp’s performance would have earned her at least a bronze medal had a T-based eligibility rule been in effect, journalists wrote that she wouldn’t have complained if she’d medaled, and that she didn’t medal because she isn’t as talented or doesn’t work as hard as the three male-bodied athletes who did.

These critics betray their own ignorance when they say these things. They don’t know that 18-year-old males routinely run in the 1:55 range, but that running this fast would be impossible even for the world’s best 18-year-old female. They don’t know that men’s championship events are often run tactically but that women’s never are, at least not by the biological females in the race, because the latter don’t have the explosive power to pull off late-race surges; or that, even at their peak, non-doped females can’t plan to negative split–run faster in the fourth 200 meters than the second or third—in a world class race. It isn’t awesome to watch athletes do these things in women’s races; it’s a universal tell.

Females who have specialized in the 800 meters do know these things, as well as our event’s androgen-plagued history: For a long time, the event was overwhelmingly dominated by women who were doping. In the current period, the spurious hormones are mostly the result of 46, XY males with DSDs. In both cases, the athletes in question may or may not have known that they were being doped, or recruited for their DSDs, by their federations to increase their country’s medal count. For the non-doped females on the track, though, the difference is mostly irrelevant.

Bullying people into silence isn’t a respectable solution to policy disagreements. It’s wrong to treat people as though their voice is illegitimate simply because you would prefer to control the narrative. In this space that’s been set aside for our bodies precisely because they are different, it’s especially insidious to try to disguise a new form of female subordination—“You can’t talk about her body”—as progressive politics

FeministCat · 04/05/2019 17:17

Sorry my bolding for the quoted text got a bit messed up!

DecomposingComposers · 04/05/2019 17:19

How do you all know the exact medical and biological details of CS? I didn't think they had been disclosed (and rightly so). It's disgusting how you all feel you have the right to violate someone's privacy like this.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 04/05/2019 17:20

Bullying people into silence isn’t a respectable solution to policy disagreements

^ this.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 04/05/2019 17:22

DecomposingComposers

Read the ruling!!! I am sick of people coming on this thread, but bothering to RTFT or the damn ruling. Privacy?? Wtf are you talking about. She’s an elite athlete who challenged rules and her condition had to be known to do so.

RepealTheGRA · 04/05/2019 17:24

How do you all know the exact medical and biological details of CS? I didn't think they had been disclosed (and rightly so). It's disgusting how you all feel you have the right to violate someone's privacy like this

OMFG RTFT FFS

Datun · 04/05/2019 17:25

It's disgusting how you all feel you have the right to violate someone's privacy like this.

Oh, take a seat. The ruling is public. It's in every single newspaper in the land.

Genderfreelass · 04/05/2019 17:27

Pota, yes CS deserves a level of sympathy for having a medical condition.

However what they don't deserve is to continue competing as a female when they are not female. This is based on the fact they have XY chromosomes, undescended testes, have been thru male puberty with male testosterone levels leading to a male physiology.

They have a lot of fame and fortune from, IMO dishonestly competing as a woman in sex categorised elite sport. Before this week I defended and supported CS but not anymore. Had CS run the Doha race and retired I would have maintained some respect, but they didn't, they won't let men and "other humans" stop them competing. I hope they do challenge the ruling and CAS tighten it even more to only XX women across all sports. I'm sick of mediocre males taking away from women and girls that have more ralent and are more deserving.

FeministCat · 04/05/2019 17:27

How do you all know the exact medical and biological details of CS? I didn't think they had been disclosed (and rightly so). It's disgusting how you all feel you have the right to violate someone's privacy like this.

We KNOW Caster has an XY DSD because they have challenged the regulations that apply to an XY DSD and it is in the written decision. Read it. It is all disclosed because Caster and her legal team had to disclose it to challenge the regulations.

We have known since 2009 or so when Caster was originally told they had to lower testosterone to compete because they fell under the DSD XY criteria. We don’t know what DSD but the criteria lists only a few options, all of which involve testes and some level of androgen sensitivity.

We also know they did not have “normally” developed external male genitalia because everyone in their family has told us so by saying they “looked like a girl”. Indeed, they repeatedly insist on telling us so, as do all their supporters, that they don’t have a penis.

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