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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya

999 replies

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 07:50

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

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borntobequiet · 19/02/2019 22:11

This is who Evan Davis was speaking to on the PM prog.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Burn_(geneticist)
He’s Professor of Clinical Genetics at Newcastle University. It was a very interesting and civilised discussion. The Prof said it was his guess that Caster is 46 XX, but that he couldn’t be sure. He emphasised that all these “intersex” conditions are rare and gives frequencies for some of them. Link to the programme (about 49 min in)
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0002m41

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 19/02/2019 23:05

Yes I also listened to the discussion on R4 PM on the train home and the Professor was not saying Caster is 46XX, he said he doesn't know about her specific condition but he'd guess that she could be. Disappointing he didn't clarify that the SRY+ with it, because he had explained well at the outset about the SRY.

It was a good piece actually, certainly by the current BBC standards. Compare that Prof Burn with the fuckwit Jeremy Vine had on yesterday...

Also just to say to everythingthelighttouches the article you linked to was a really good read. Joanna seems very fair and rational, and the guy (Ross?) very good too.

QuietContraryMary · 19/02/2019 23:26

Hmm, Mr. Burn didn't seem very informed in particular about the history of sex testing in sport.

He said 'My suspicion is Caster is 46XX, so could not be excluded on chromosomal testing, but nevertheless has an exceptionally high level of male hormone for some reason biologically so has developed a male physique'. He went on to say that if Caster does not have a medical condition then should not be subject to medical treatment, and compared Caster to a very tall boy being subject to growth restriction.

This is all very disingenuous, as he did not give any explanation in his capacity of professor of genetics as to what 'some reason' for male testosterone levels might be (although again he hinted at it previously, when he pronounced it 'testes-terone')

He had also earlier explained about the SRY gene, and the chromosomal testing he discussed is not even on the table.

As noted here:

www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(05)67843-9.pdf

"The International Olympic Committee first, however, replaced X chromosome testing with DNA-based methods to detect Y chromosomal material, principally the SRY sex determining locus, beginning at the 1992 Winter Games in Albertville, France"

So there is no question of chromosome testing!

It continues that the testing was scrapped because it was expensive and did not seem to be useful in that 8 of 3387 athletes tested SRY+, 7 had CAIS or PAIS, and 1 had 5ARD (and previously subject to removal of testes), but all 8 were eventually cleared to compete.

AIR from another study there are more athletes than this who have 5ARD and gonadectomy has been performed on a number - it seems to have been the key to ensure participation as a female. This obviously presents a moral dilemma in that my understanding is that 5ARD generally results in male gender identity after puberty, something that castration would tend to eliminate. So you have/had impoverished athletes being castrated in order to compete in female sport.

The default thinking in the past seems to have been 'it is unfair to exclude athletes unless absolutely necessary', and this has resulted in people who perhaps in the 5ARD + gonadectomy cases may have otherwise fathered children being allowed to compete in female sport.

This presumably was at least partly on the basis that these athletes were not exactly world-beaters.

Semenya has changed that presumption by winning everything, so now rather than 'let these people with biological differences compete, what's the harm?', we are saying 'is it fair that women should lose to athletes with testes?'.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 19/02/2019 23:45

Thanks for the further explanation Mary, now you mention it, I remember there were a few points he made that I took issue with but I was just pleased that it was a better interview than Ellis Cashman, so perhaps my extremely low expectations were clouding my judgement!

Thank you for the further explanation on the physiology.

Which leads me to a point of frustration actually. I keep hearing "expert men" being brought on to give their views on this and transgender impact on women's sports, and, without fail, they at best make errors, and at worst clearly demonstrate that they don't actually realise that women's bodies are different to men's and are not just a "less good version" of a man, and are enjoying seeing women's sports being irreparably damaged.

And then you come here, or go on twitter and there are lots of women who are far for knowledgeable on the science, sport, and have an understanding of women's bodies, and whose opinion IS ACTUALLY RELEVANT to the discussion. And yet its men's views we are forced to hear.

Fed up with that.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 19/02/2019 23:46

far more*

QuietContraryMary · 20/02/2019 00:04

"I keep hearing "expert men" being brought on to give their views on this and transgender impact on women's sports, and, without fail, they at best make errors, and at worst clearly demonstrate that they don't actually realise that women's bodies are different to men's and are not just a "less good version" of a man, and are enjoying seeing women's sports being irreparably damaged."

I agree with that.

The point I missed when I started writing my post was it was not 'Mr. Burn', but

Professor Sir John Burn

Also he's very well-published

www.ncl.ac.uk/igm/staff/profile/johnburn.html#publications

But not one single paper on sex determination, intersex conditions, or anything directly relevant to the topic being discussed.

There is a more relevant expert I can recall being interviewed on this topic, Professor Alison Heather (née Death)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alison_Heather

"Heather competes in ultra-long distance running events and triathlons. Her area of specialisation is the effect of sex hormones on non-reproductive tissues, which includes use of sex hormones and related substances in sports doping. "

mooncuplanding · 20/02/2019 00:51

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Kedgeree · 20/02/2019 08:47

QuietContraryMary thank you for your informative posts. I know nothing about the science, but I do know about press / media. The reason why Prof Burn will have been asked onto the show is not so much because of his expertise or publications but because his university will have offered him up to talk to media on a specified range of topics. Quite possibly he's just on a researcher's contact list, aling with others, and she's rung through that list until someone in the right ballpark has become available/ willing to comment. He's definitely not been called because he's considered the gold-standard person to talk to.

powershowerforanhour · 20/02/2019 17:39

What about (hypothetically) a sports person that transitions as a young child, taking blockers etc at puberty, stopping any physical advantage over women?

They would likely still have a competitive advantage. You can't fool a genetically male body into a perfect imitation of a phenotypically female one no matter what you do. Prepubertal castration of many mammalian species- cattle, horses, dogs for example- results in delayed growth plate closure- so these individuals end up taller, on average, than uncastrated males or females. Longer limbs are an advantage. The athletic advantage of being born male has been quantified in the horse racing world: mares in jumps races have to carry 7lb less than males- most of which are castrated males.

Of course this may not translate directly to people but we are all mammals. (In fact you see some similar effects in other warm blooded creatures: caponised cockerels do not look like hens).

powershowerforanhour · 20/02/2019 17:47

Just in case anyone thinks it's distasteful to compare humans to animals: I spent all of this morning considering mouse and rat models for medical research into human diseases: colorectal cancer, diabetic retinopathy and blood disorders amongst other things. I don't get why animal studies can be used as models for most areas of human physiological/medical research, but they don't tend to get cited in these sorts of coversations. Colons, eyes, bone marrow; limb length, pelvis shape, lung capacity- what difference does it make?

Sam2112 · 20/02/2019 18:09

She has an intersex condition.
She has androgen issues and chromosome disorders. SHE IS NOT TRANS.
I accept that her testosterone levels will be unusually high, but they are natural and not rare for her intersex condition.
I oppose biological males competing with female in any sport.
She is NOT a biological male, but understand her testosterone levels cause concern, IF they can find away to lower her levels to what is considered normal for a biological female, i sense that is a fair way forward.
Please do not let this be confused with transgender attempts to compete in womens sports .

ErrolTheDragon · 20/02/2019 18:10

It occurred to me that some information on males castrated before puberty does exist (though it doesn't tell us what the effect of cross sex hormones might be.) . It's in line with what powershower notes in other mammals.

From the wiki page on Castrati

As the castrato's body grew, his lack of testosterone meant that his epiphysess^ (bone-joints) did not harden in the normal manner. Thus the limbs of the castrati often grew unusually long, as did the bones of their ribss^. This, combined with intensive training, gave them unrivalled lung-powerr^ and breath capacity.[1] Operating through small, child-sized vocal cordss^, their voices were also extraordinarily flexible, and quite different from the equivalent adult female

MillytantForceit · 20/02/2019 18:14

Humans are animals. Vertebrates. Mammals. Primates etc.

cathyandclare · 20/02/2019 18:18

I feel for Semenya, she has done nothing wrong. The problem is that by allowing women with intersex disorders and partial androgen insensitivity and potentially an XY genotype to compete with their internal testes and natural testosterone, it opens the way for XY transwomen competitors to compete with their testes and natural testosterone. Which could be the end of competitive sport for women.

That's why the ruling is so crucial.

Kedgeree · 20/02/2019 21:32

Do people such as Caster with a DSD have health issues as a result? We talk about the very specific advantages it may confer in regard to athletics, but not about any difficulties they may experience maybe ater in life eg fertility and menopause etc?

cathyandclare · 20/02/2019 22:19

It's difficult to be specific without a definitive diagnosis, but people with partial or total androgen insensitivity do not have a female-type menopause because they do not have ovaries. Internal testes are at increased risk of malignant change. When it comes to fertility, sperm could be extracted from internal testes (however the increased temperature inside the body can significantly reduce the numbers of healthy sperm) so parenthood is potentially possible with an egg donor and surrogate or a female partner and IVF.

QuietContraryMary · 20/02/2019 22:23

"She has androgen issues and chromosome disorders. SHE IS NOT TRANS.
I accept that her testosterone levels will be unusually high, but they are natural and not rare for her intersex condition. "

That is waffle apart from the 'not trans' bit.

There is no definitive information about Caster's condition

As I have said, very high levels of testosterone can only be a consequence of possessing testes, and testes are formed either by possessing a Y chromosome or by the SRY gene from the Y chromosome being transposed onto the X chromosome.

I don't really get this 'natural' stuff.

Barracker · 21/02/2019 00:24

What pride could one ever have in knowing one's achievements were a result of male physiological advantage, against sporting competitors who were all unambiguously female?

It's a hollow victory, worthless and degrading.

Those with SRY conditions or other diagnosed physiological male characteristics must have a new category. There should be no stigma attached to being intersex.

There should be no pressure for them to suppress their natural hormone levels to compete against a class in which they do not belong. That's entirely unethical.
Let the achievement mean something. Let DSD competitors have their own category and compete fairly exactly as they are.

2rebecca · 22/02/2019 14:23

There was an interesting discussion on this on Talk Radio this morning with JHB's stand in Daisy McAndrew (who I thought was very good). She interviewed a sports journalist for The Times about the issue. They haven't put the segment on the twitter feed and I can't remember if it was at around 8.45 or 9.45 as was in the car listening to the radio at both times and have no sound on my work computer to find it. Worth a listen if anyone can be bothered trawling through the Talk Radio listen again segments

2rebecca · 22/02/2019 14:23

from the Times not for the Times

RedToothBrush · 01/05/2019 11:32

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48102479
Caster Semenya loses Cas appeal over new IAAF testosterone rules

Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) rejected the South African's challenge against the IAAF's new rules.

But Cas said it had "serious concerns as to the future practical application" of the new rules.

Semenya, 28, had said the regulations were "unfair" and that she wanted to "run naturally, the way I was born".

jay55 · 01/05/2019 11:36

I do feel for her but am relieved by the decision.

AlwaysComingHome · 01/05/2019 11:40

My position is still this: that biological females should compete with biological females and biological males should compete with biological males.

Testosterone levels aren’t the issue; they are an indicator of sex but they are not sex itself.

If a biological female has high testosterone levels she is still biologically female and shouldn’t be put on testosterone blockers. This isn’t the same as a man trying to pass himself off as a woman.

I don’t know the specifics in Casters case. If she is biologically female she should be allowed to compete with other females; if male she should compete with men.

eurochick · 01/05/2019 11:41

I haven't read the full award yet but this seems like a sensible decision from CAS. I feel for those with intersex conditions but something needed to be done to protect women's sport.

Kilbranan · 01/05/2019 11:46

Yes I am relieved too - this could have been thin edge of the wedge had Caster won this, with trans athletes piggybacking their way into women’s sport as well

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