Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

All I know is that independent studies have failed to show the link that’s being claimed.

Have you got a link please? I'd be interested to read those.

Because the British Medical Journal of Sports Medicine says the opposite:

www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/naturally-produced-testosterone-gives-female-athletes-significant-competitive-edge/

Has it been proven yet that Caster is intersex? Has she had the test/scan?

I feel sorry for intersex athletes, but women must be allowed to compete in women-only races.

Have you got a link please?

I don’t, sorry - as I said it’s a complicated area and while a quick google throws up lots of different studies I obviously don’t want to link to anything I haven’t read. My statement was based on the CAS’s suspension of the IAAF’s hyperandrogyny regulations on the basis that they hadn’t evidenced their position on testosterone. The second article I linked to above discusses it too.

If I remember later when I have my laptop I’ll read and link to the actual studies.

I feel so sorry for Caster. She is a popular and high profile athlete so whatever decision is made, will not end the controversy. When she first ran, the South African officials were asked to withdraw her from competition pending the results of testing. They refused, making a very private process a public affair.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-versus-the-world-the-caster-semenya-affair-1777196.html

There is no doubt that when she had to reduce her testosterone levels, her performance was reduced and she did not win any medals. It seems to me that it was very clear that had an intersex condition from a young age but nobody intervened because they realised she had huge potential in women’s athletics.

Why don't we have a quota system? That would be fair.

There have been no biological women to date who have won men's events. But there have been men who identify as women who win women's events. McKinnon for example.

So we should stop all men who identify as women from competing in women's events and we just sit and wait until we have just one woman (who identifies as a man) who wins in a men's event.

At that point, a man who identifies as a woman is allowed to compete against women again. When that person wins the women's event, we stop again and wait again for a biological woman to win a men's event.

The IAAF in 2016 agreed there wasn't enough evidence testosterone gave an advantage but they have looked in to the evidence and consulted experts and now believe that testosterone does give an advantage which is why they want all women athletes to have low testosterone levels to make the competition fairer.

My statement was based on the CAS’s suspension of the IAAF’s hyperandrogyny regulations on the basis that they hadn’t evidenced their position on testosterone.

Isn't this story back in the news because they have produced the evidence and are waiting on a CAS decision to re-implement the regulations?

www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/stay-of-regulations-to-suppress-testosterone

"The IAAF remains very confident of the legal, scientific, and ethical bases for the Regulations, and therefore fully expects the Court of Arbitration for Sport to reject these challenges."

Clearly the IAAF thinks it makes a different.

No. The IAAF is a hyper-politicised organisation that vacillates between lobby groups.

X post with 2rebecca.

LilaJude

"All I know is that independent studies have failed to show the link that’s being claimed."

The vast majority of studies seem to agree that high testosterone levels give an athlete a distinct advantage.

thesportjournal.org/article/physiological-and-psychological-effects-of-testosterone-on-sport-performance-a-critical-review-of-literature/

www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99434993/professor-of-physiology-says-trans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power

I can't get my head round the fact that we question whether testosterone confers benefit to athletes.

Men have greater lung capacity, larger hearts delivering greater oxygen and red blood cells volumes to their bulkier, longer, leaner muscles in a body which has hips more suited to running. None of these things are questioned... if it's not testosterone then we should figure out what it is and test that instead!!

"Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, "

Testicles?

Here is a thread from a few days ago. Lots of links and comments:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3507608-IAAF-and-the-Semena-Case

On the whole The FWR board seem to agree that Semenya should have a right to medical privacy, that she isn’t a ‘cheat’ in the way that deliberate dopers are, but that male bodied people cannot be allowed in women’s sports.

Personally, I think it’s not really the testosterone level that should be the defining factor, but the presence of a Y chromosome.

This can be determined via a cheap and simple blood test (no awful genital inspection required!) and should probably be done as a screen for ALL female athletes competing at a certain level, prior to the competition taking place.

If sporting bodies are allowed to share a single record, it would only need to be done once or twice (the second one to verify the results of the first) if not (due to data and privacy law) it might need to be repeated for each competitive body.

No Y chromosome, no problem!

PCOS only causes slight increases in testosterone levels - enough to cause acne and hirsutism in some women, and to contribute to subfertility. But unfortunately not enough to significantly increase muscle mass etc.

I agree. High testosterone levels from puberty are responsible for some of the advantages genetic males have but not all. For sports it should be Y chromosome category and no Y chromosome category, although I'd still keep the max testosterone of 5 to make things as fair as possible

I've long resisted women being defined in reference to men as the standard. But I'm coming around to the idea that as far as sport is concerned, women's categories need to unequivocally exclude every person who possesses, or HAS EVER POSSESSED any physiologically male characteristic.
XY
XXY
male reproductive system
male hormone levels

Out you go. Compete with men or lobby for your own category. But you are permanently excluded from competing against women because they are fundamentally different to you.

Sporting bodies have utterly stuffed this up with their "what you need to do " rules of qualifying. Being female is not dependent upon what a person does but upon what a person is.

Someone said to me the other day that the answer is two categories: women (as in XX) and open.

LangCleg

That would be the most sensible option in my opinion.

With you barracker

The sports bodies to afrai£ of the people lobbying to get twaw accepted as a fact
AnD this is wher3 we are now
Lord Coe said on the telly that ioc supports the empowerment of women and girls through sport before he went into court today

Yes. There are plenty of organisations which nowadays seem to think that 'men and non-men (the latter of which may be 'inclusive' of women, TW, TM, non-binary, 'gender fluid' blokes on their womaning days) is a reasonable categorisation . For sport, it seems much more reasonable to have women and 'non women' - but as I can't think of any sport where women have an advantage (other than specifically female gymnastic disciplines) then women and open should be fine.

I think it might have been Germaine Greer who said yonks ago that by now we shouldn't be sexing babies by looking at them. All babies should have a chromosome test at birth which would tell us their sex.

Unfortunately, as others have said, sport is binary, and maybe that's what needs to be reconsidered. That would allow the Caster Semanyas and Margaret Wambuis of this world to participate without compromising competition for women. The answer isn't to have two categories which are "men" and "not men".

Someone said to me the other day that the answer is two categories: women (as in XX) and open.

I agree.

The other issue in this case is that Caster has been treated abysmally during her whole athletic career - intensely personal details being shared and speculated upon worldwide in the media with the ensuing abuse and racism that has brought down.
Her behaviour throughout the whole process has been amazing I think - she's a very brave & strong person to be able to deal with what she has done, so whilst her situation is very complicated I hope what is learnt from it is that DSD cases need to be treated carefully and with privacy and dignity for the person involved.