Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

Hear hear, GlossyTaco

There’s also that trans boy wrestler in America who is forced to complete against girls (and subsequently wins everything)

But why do they win? Are they taking testosterone supplements? (I don't think so, as that would be banned) Or are they simply better than the other wrestlers? In which case, they are winning fair and square.

There are occasional girls who are so outstanding in their discipline that they compete against boys in order to keep pushing themselves and having real competition - usually until their female peers catch up, or they are old enough to compete in district / national / international events, where there are other phenomenal female athletes to provide competition.

And yet the very basis of fairness in the Paralympics is to classify athletes according to numerous criteria to maintain fairness within classifications Yes! That seems to be an unpalatable solution, the fix nobody dares say out loud.

Then again, the scarcity of competitors would be an issue--- and trans plus intersex wuld be awhole new can of worms!

There is no easy solution. May be no solution at all! May be just a blanket ban on intersex and trans athletes in mainstream sports..

Who could then go and set up their own sporting federations. Which wouldn't be discriminatory as every other sport grew like that!

She deserves medical privacy but equally those competing in women's sporting events should have xx chromosomes (certainly no y's!) and testosterone within the normal range for adult women. If you do not meet this criteria you can compete with men or if there was sufficient numbers, a separate category. This only needs to apply for events where it's proven that having increased testosterone gives a substantial advantage

No, I am not outraged.

1. This is a return to former policy.

1. Caster is supposedly intersex but they have never said how. Just because she is intersex does not mean she is not XY, and there are some reports she may have undescended testes. So yeah, I don’t care how Caster was “raised” if they have a Y chromosome.

And yes, increased testosterone does provide competitive advantage in many sports - that is why even men are to test within certain levels (or else they are considered to be doping). If it provided no advantage why would some use it for doping?

Are you not aware of the East German Olympics scandal where they doped female athletes from youth with coercive administration and distribution of performance-enhancing drugs, such as testosterone and other anabolic steroids? The effects it had on their bodies? That one of them, shotputter Heidi Krieger now lives as Andreas Krieger (as a “man”) because of the effects on her body?

I feel for her, but I feel more for the women she "competes" against who train hard and know they haven't a hope of beating her.

Speaking of her rivals and their feelings on the matter of knowing they have no hope of beating her:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/walsh-caster-semenya-2p377rbvd

Heidi/Andreas Krieger's story is disturbing and desperately sad.

Deliberate doping carried out covertly on unsuspecting, (very) young women athletes who were told they were having vitamin shots etc.

State-sponsored eugenics. Lives utterly ruined.

Do Not Understand:

If testosterone does not affect performance, why can CS not lower hers to the maximum level allowed, almost double that of 99% of women?

It’s really not that hard for the IAAF to clarify that humans must meet certain criteria to compete in womens sport.....be born a girl and be screened for DSD condition.
If you don’t meet those criteria then yr not eligible to compete in Womens sport.

"I am NOT conflating intersex atheltes and males. Laurel Hubbard is a man, born, raised, trained as a man. "

How Laurel Hubbard was raised, trained and born isn't really what I'm concerned about.

I just watched Dangal, the two Phogat sisters were raised in large part as boys and trained with them, and went on to international success, but against girl.

In terms of how people are born it's not such a big thing - a baby is not winning any sporting competitions.

The big thing is the natural biological advantage of androgens that are produced and virilize the body during male puberty. As we know prepuberty girls and boys can compete in sport together.

So as far as intersex athletes goes, while they might have been deemed female at birth, if they go on to produce male quantities of androgens in puberty, then that will result in bodies within the male range.

Talking about socialization as a girl, or sex assignation at birth is nonsense. Sport is about biological differences, and 'female' and 'male' are distinct categories as a consequence of male puberty.

Not because of training, genitals at birth or anything else you might care to come up with - because of testosterone. Those producing male amounts of testosterone - and this certainly includes some of the competitors in the female 800m - from the age of about 13 onwards - are going to develop much stronger than those who do not.

It is not possible for a human who lacks testes to produce testosterone in the normal male range. That's what it comes down to in the end.

There’s also that trans boy wrestler in America who is forced to complete against girls (and subsequently wins everything)

But why do they win? Are they taking testosterone supplements?

Yes. Mack Beggs was taking testosterone when Mack won two girls' championships.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2018/02/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-second-texas-state-girls-championship/?utm_term=.24f812267653

'Transgirls' on T are why, if there's two sex-based categories, they really can only be women and Open.

Duh... I meant transboys, obv.

There is an interesting Inquiry podcast about this subject. They don't touch the elephant in the room that is trans women in sport, but discuss intersex.

'Is Women's Sport in Trouble?' BBC Inquiry

itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-inquiry/id932499233?mt=2&i=1000419200695

Trans category in the Paralympics would seem the way to go.

jellyfrizz = troll with no place in this discussion except to downplay the relevance of women's sport altogether and thus can be ignored entirely

Trans category in the Paralympics would seem the way to go.

that doesn't sound like it would be remotely acceptable or appropriate either from the POV of the Paralympic movement or trans people.

It happens, athletes having to adjust/retire due to newly discovered medical issues. A shock, frustrating, even devestating, but ya gotta accept it

Oh dear, the lines have been smudged in sport between the now outdated binary of male and female for years now and it is always going to be non-trans/ non intersex women who are going to miss out.

I think intersex athletes like Caster who identify as women should be known as "superwomen" as they are in their own League, having superior physical attributes and should therefore compete in their own League.

The only way around it is to have separate intersex/ Super categories, especially as the population of transgender/ non binary people increases.

Çaster, along with other intersex/ trans athletes are not at fault, all they want to do is compete for the sports they have trained hard for and it is high time sports' governing bodies welcome and provide non-binary athletes with non-binary opportunities to compete.

It must be obvious even to themselves that they are in another league to those whom they are competing against at the moment and that is unfair to both.

It is nonsensical for sports' governing bodies to always be lagging behind in finding a sensible solution.

The former communist bloc routinely altered the hormone levels of their athletes and still they were allowed to compete against women.

It must be soul destroying for women to know that they can never win against these intersex/ superwomen.

What is it going to take before something is actually done?

Trying to fit non -binary people into binary boxes is doomed to failure and should never have happened.

Sports bodies need to understand and accept that non-binary athletes are here to stay and find ways of welcoming them and providing for them.

Yes, I do feel awful for Caster. They demonstrate exactly why "trans" should not be conflated with "intersex". They are completely separate issues.

Thankfully, situations like this are extremely rare, so they should be taken case-by-case.

Personally, I think Caster should be allowed to run. If trans women are allowed in her sport, then she definitely should be. Full stop.

Mary I give in. You seem quite determined to misunderstand me.

That's fine, but it is odd that you do as I agree with you, for the most part. We may disagree over the science, which I believe needs to catch up before any decisions are made about any penalties, categorisations or condemnations are made.

It is, in my opinion, that transwomen do not compete against women, for all the reasons you outline. In my mind that is stating the blindingly obvious!

But it is also correct, in my opinion, that more science is needed to understand the wide variation in intersex individuals before making any decisions about their comeptitive niche. It is obvious that there is an advantage from testosterone, I have stated that more than once (I taught sport science for long enough to know what it is ands how it affects performance).

BUT the advantage is not the same for all, the effects vary. It is incumbent upon the AIIF etc to know fully what it is they are banning, sidelining, categorising, before they go ahead with any irreversible changes. They should be seen to be doing more, better than the current statement - as I also said way back upthread!

If all of that means that some or all intersex athletes are also banned from competing against female athletes, so be it! BUT do the science first. Make it a fully informed decision, Make sure that any possible loopholes are closed, prevent any unecessary prolonging of the situation.

THAT is, as far as I can see, is the upshot of Dutee Chand's court decision.

Yeahnahyeah

"It happens, athletes having to adjust/retire due to newly discovered medical issues."

Exactly. Chris Boardman was diagnosed with Osteoporosis at 30, but wasn't allowed to take the medication to keep his cycling career going, so the last 2 years were absolute hell for him.

Nobody, least of all the IAAF, is suggesting Semenya 'should not be allowed to run, only that she should not do so with abnormally high testosterone levels.

jellyfrizz = troll with no place in this discussion except to downplay the relevance of women's sport altogether and thus can be ignored entirely

The what now?

Yes, that post re JellyFrizz made no sense to me either... I assumed the poster was referring to someone you’d engaged with earlier in the thread but not sure who.

And anyway, troll hunting is against talk guidelines, the correct procedure is to report anyone you’re suspicious of so that post was out of line whatever it was supposed to mean.