Posie, please stop

[Sunshineofleith]

Beating yourself up. You, Venice and Julia have conquered the market. No other ‘feminist’ has managed this. How amazing are you all. Posie, you have managed so much by presenting a truth that a women is an adult human female that is scientifically proven has scared everyone. How amazing are you.
I await my t shirt with this fact. I will not be able to wear it as I have a child/teen, nearly an adult who thinks they are female. Your t shirt will go into a drawer but I know it’s there reminding me, when I am questioning myself for not affirming my child’s thought, that my son can not be female.
Keep up your fight. Stop listening to others who are jealous of your basic campaign and who try to intellectualise it with academic talk, when the simple truth gets the job done.
Stand up for us parents. No one else is. Stand up for our daughters and for our sons too. The parents voice needs heard. Focus on this. It does not matter to parents where you are aligned politically. But you know this. Keep doing what you are doing and fight for me because I’m not brave enough to stand up

The great thing about courageous, outspoken individuals who fearlessly speak and act in their own capacity, is that they don't have to run everything past a damned committee or carefully toe party lines before expressing themselves. Go them.

The downside for people who busy themselves with trying to control and police others is that the brave will not be controlled and policed.

Look at the state of every party and institution which has an 'official line' - they have all been infiltrated and are being controlled from within and all the right thinking, sane people within them are terrified of being ousted or losing their jobs if they speak up.

Look at the state of the Labour party for example?

Posie is allowed to express her opinions and concerns on her own fucking Facebook page.

That's not what I meant LangCleg. I meant that criticism of specific actions is being conflated with trying to 'kick someone out of feminism'. It's polarised this particular discussion into 'all for Posie' and 'Posie is the devil'. Campaigns benefit from high profile 'faces' but with that always comes the risk of personality cults building up around them and no criticism is allowed. At all.

I will still support anyone who’s brave enough to speak up in public about this but I don’t recall electing any leaders.

And if the talkers and intellectuals are suddenly finding that they’re getting a more receptive hearing, they would do well to bear in mind that it might not be solely down to their own efforts.

And ‘leading the charge’ sounds to me like a stereotypically male turn of phrase. Kristina might wish to reflect on that.

I really don't think there is a cult of personality around posie, but I think TRAs are desperately trying to create one.

I have seen over and over again comments such as 'you don't have to agree with everything she says' or 'you dont have to like her', etc, etc, - she is presented as a bit of a 'marmite' person in my experience. I see her as a defiant and brave woman and I like it. I dont expect to have entirely overlapping concerns with her - since I don't with any other human on the planet.

She gets way too much stick. It is unreasonable and seems pretty targeted to me.

That's not what I meant LangCleg. I meant that criticism of specific actions is being conflated with trying to 'kick someone out of feminism'. It's polarised this particular discussion into 'all for Posie' and 'Posie is the devil'. Campaigns benefit from high profile 'faces' but with that always comes the risk of personality cults building up around them and no criticism is allowed. At all.

I'll be clear.

So far, I have managed to successfully stick to a no woman under the bus position. But every single time somebody posts some vague, snide allusion to things that have nothing to do with women's liberation in order to further tribal splits, I'm nudged one step further away from not taking sides. Every time someone tries to tell me I should prioritise a male voice over a female one, I'm nudged another step further away.

Once nudged, I don't move back. Beware of what you wish for. You just might get it.

*The great thing about courageous, outspoken individuals who fearlessly speak and act in their own capacity, is that they don't have to run everything past a damned committee or carefully toe party lines before expressing themselves. Go them.

The downside for people who busy themselves with trying to control and police others is that the brave will not be controlled and policed.

Look at the state of every party and institution which has an 'official line' - they have all been infiltrated and are being controlled from within and all the right thinking, sane people within them are terrified of being ousted or losing their jobs if they speak up.

Look at the state of the Labour party for example?

Posie is allowed to express her opinions and concerns on her own fucking Facebook page*

I agree with your entire post here WeRiseUp

I have campaigned as a lone voice in a health area, refused to take funding by pharma linked groups and, ergo, had total freedom to call it as I saw it. I also spoke up about other non-health issues that concerned me from time to time, not directly linked but indicative of an overall pattern that dissent was being shut down - no platforming in Universities and such like. If readers and followers disagreed, so be it. It was my campaign and my opinion and I wasn't looking for slavish adherence or agreement. But my god was presence resented, by medics, pharma and patients who felt I didn't tow their particular party line. I was offered money to come into the fold. Not a chance, not ever. Our voice and our truth are the most precious armoury we have.

TS people should not be inserting themselves into intra-feminist disputes. It's not a good look, whatever the position taken.

This.

Not a chance, not ever. Our voice and our truth are the most precious armoury we have.

Absolutely. The truth is sharper, bigger, stronger and more justified than anything the oppressors and their enablers have to hand.

It's what I love about Pat Craven and The Freedom Programme. No funders, no board, no kowtowing, no bullshit.

I'll echo what Lang said, what with this being an echo chamber and all.

Women, centred. Simple as. I'll listen to anyone and accept or reject what they have to say on it's own merits.

But I will not prioritize male feelings or opinions about women's rights. Ever.

I’m not on FB so I have no idea what was said but I am tired of the constant critique of Posie. She is very brave and strong but it still not fair for her every move to be debated from within the same group of people who are supposedly advocating for the same thing on this issue. Kristina is a transsexual right? That makes me more mad. Stop telling women how to do feminism, for the love of oats ( I’m atheist and I love oats )

I tend to run through the following thought process when considering whether to give any respect or mental head-space to whatever transsexuals like Kristina say: do they put their desire to be in womens' spaces above the need of my 8 yr old DD to safety, privacy and dignity. And to clarify I don't just mean physical safety but mental safety too i.e. feeling safe, feeling she has bodily autonomy, feeling like she has a right to set boundaries which she won't if in with a male body.

Miranda definitely would put my DD first I think. Kristina and Debbie, not.

So, I don't listen to a single thing they say. And will teach my daughters the same.

And I'm certain that protecting young girls is a large part of Posie's motivation for doing what she does and putting herself and her kids at risk. Thank you again Posie, Venice and Julia.

And the more people who put their selfish desires above the needs of young girls smear Posie, the less I think of them and the more likely I am to support Posie, Venice and Julia however I can.

And the more people who put their selfish desires above the needs of young girls smear Posie, the less I think of them and the more likely I am to support Posie, Venice and Julia however I can.

Here here. Fully agree

I'm not on SM and I've barely been following what's been happening over the last week but Floral summed it up for me

Women, centred. Simple as. I'll listen to anyone and accept or reject what they have to say on it's own merits.
But I will not prioritize male feelings or opinions about women's rights. Ever.
We aren't allowed much that solely for us, soon to be even less, but we can decide for ourselves what harms us and what protects us without the input of men.

Personally I find Posie a bit attention seeking and can’t see what useful purpose the original posting has, other than feeding into that and distracting from the bigger picture.

Personally I find Posie a bit attention seeking

that's the point isn't it?

I haven't posted on this as I don't do FB and so have missed a lot of what's happened over the past couple of weeks. The US seems to be in a worse state than us at the moment - feminists there have been so successfully no-platformed that they've had no choice but to turn to the right, hence the Heritage Foundation and Fox News. Perhaps if the so-called progressives took their boots off women's necks then they'd see that. Or at least that's the way it seems to me as an outside observer.

You don't have to agree with everything someone else believes to work together for a common goal. DM and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum politically, but together we leafletted our town with FPFW leaflets.

Like Lang and Floral I am trying to stay Switzerland. The phrase divide and conquer exists for a reason: it would be nice if the personal attacks could end.

Any woman speaking out publicly about this issue does so at great personal cost and I salute her.

(I also salute Lang for her commitment to her chosen breakfast: I may be the only other MNer who actually thinks it's nice)

Ahem , it was a big fat thank you. Do I need to justify gratitude?
I’ve thanked others for their contribution to keeping women and children safe. Now I’m thanking Posie for helping the desperate parents who can’t believe their child has been caught up in an ideology that welcomes mutilation, castration and drugs that are given without any thought of the damage caused. What happened to good old talk therapy and helping kids love the body they have or at least recognise acceptance? What happened to trust your parents as they are the only people who truly care for you?
I’m off to finish my Valentines meal with a husband who is thankful for Posie.

Now it happens that it is Posie who has helped further this cause for me. I could substitute Posie’s name with anyone else who did the same. It just happened to be Posie. What’s the big deal? To me, this is the big picture. It might not be for others but it is to me and other parents who feel the way I do.

My post was in response to
Lumene

ActualWoman There are people who have serious concerns about PP using her Facebook profile to post conspiracy theories on for example Syria and the yellow vests which have nothing to do with 'adult human female'. But maybe women should just learn to shut up.

Now isn't that surreal. The "conspiracy theories" about Syria are those of the anti-imperialist, anti-militarist far left. So, I'm meant to condemn Posie at one and the same time for suspected right wing sympathies and for suspected left wing sympathies?

Is this woman not allowed to be a normal person with sometimes complicated, maybe even conflicting views about our world and all those who live within it? And am I to be forced to disown someone who agrees with me on my main focus but maybe holds different views on something else? Do you not see how nuts that is?

When the remain campaign held an event in Scotland, featuring prominent unionist and independence campaigners, there was a lot of extremely hostile criticism for a female independence campaigner about associating with the former (and weirdly enough only for her).

And that was as idiotic as all of these tantrums about the "movement" needing to disown Posie.

Piss off!

Like it or not, the women's rights movement has always and will always include right wing, left wing, centrist and apolitical women in various combinations depending on whichever women's rights issue is at stake. And this is an issue that concerns women from all kinds of social, educational and political backgrounds.

If I feel like it, I will protest against Brexit alongside unionists and TRAs and then I'll campaign alongside a Brexiter against either of those when it comes to independence and women's rights. That is how the world of politics works for men. And I'm bloody well claiming the same right for women.

What’s with all the stuff on Twitter about how you have to be “of the left” to be a proper feminist? I’m not talking about the question of Posie and co being hosted by the Heritage Foundation in the US. I mean the chatter afterwards. Why can’t we coalesce around women’s rights without it meaning we all agree on the best economic model or the right policies on other things? Even if historically the rad fem movement came out of trade unions (if it did) that doesn’t mean you can’t be a true feminist unless you’re a socialist. I mean, that’s like saying feminism has to look after everyone....and that’s not the point at all!

Pretty much what CharlieParley said actually. I was typing while she was.

I’m on a smoke break. On the thank you side to this thread, it was 4th wave now, transgender trend, gender critical dad, lily maynard and Madeline Berns who actually got the ball rolling. Let’s not forget them