I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Having read all these messages around hating men, I am struck by the wide brush used to denigrate to lot. Putting the lot of them down (men) doesn't make women look any better - IMHO. It reminds me of a very sage piece of reflective advice I was given years ago - I'll repeat it here: Remember that whenever a finger is pointed at someone else, there are three fingers pointing back.

Mumsnetters are not a hive mind, well, until we say so and then sisters have to stick together???????? What bizarre thinking is this?

Exxactly, I mean whaaaa?

The difference between the class group is not the thing though because as I say, most heterosexual women (although not the ones on this thread) will have the most fulfilling and intimate relationship of their lives with a man or men. This is actually a preference for men.

I can’t tell if you’re deliberately not getting it or just not getting it.

I am married to a man I love, he’s a great guy (mostly), I love my grandad who is a wonderful man and I have many male friends.
In fact I quite like most the men I meet.

Still not keen on male entitlement, the patriarchy or male violence though and overall prefer the company of women.
And will definitely be more wary of a man on the street when I’m alone than a woman.

I'm not keen on male entitlement either, but that doesn't mean I prefer women to men, and besides saying I did when I love my husband more than any other adult I e ever met would be odd.

You keep trying make out as though the thread was simply about "aren't some of the things men do awful" which I for one would not disagree with. That is not a fair characterisation of the sort of opinions that have been expressed though.

Remember that whenever a finger is pointed at someone else, there are three fingers pointing back.

What a load of bollocks that piece of advice is.
Victim blaming clap trap straight from the corporate self help world.

So whenever anyone ever has a problem with the way they are being treated it’s because they themselves are behaving that way?

A good test for your self help bollocks is to think ‘could I look Anne Frank in the eyes and say that’. If the answer is no, it would be deeply offensive, then don’t peddle it out to people.

Its interesting to note how the term 'sisterly' has been interpreted as 'you must stick together against all reason''. Thats not actually what it means, any more than 'brotherly' means 'act like a dick because thats how your brother treated you when you were growing up'.

Thing is Calvin you agreed with the post that said statistically most men ...even the nice ones.

Now you say you are married to a good man.

But you've agreed that he's likely to have done one of the things in that post.

That's weird surely? Simultaneously you agree that even nice men have done at least one of those things and then say your husband is a decent man?

userschmoozer

How should we interpret "sisterly" then?

Its weirder to pretend its not possible for good people to do bad things. Especially on the back of this thread.

Try to be more brotherly if sisterly is outside of your reasoning.

It's also weird to want to have the most important and intimate relationship of your life with a man, if you prefer women to men. Like saying you prefer cats to dogs, actually having had several dogs that were the most important things in your life, much more so than any cats.

You keep trying make out as though the thread was simply about "aren't some of the things men do awful"

No it’s ‘aren’t some of the things men do are awful, and relentless, and we’ve discovered far more men do these things than we first thought, and even men we thought were really nice have turned out to do some of the awful things, and that’s broken our trust. Can we talk about how this has impacted our willingness to trust men in the future’

Not ‘we hate all men and can’t have any relationships with any of them anymore as they are all criminals and we can’t even teach little boys or love our sons’

userschmoozer

What is your interpretation of sisterly?

The dictionary says it's to behave in a way befitting to sisters - which means bog all really on an internet forum.

So how would you like us to live up to your instruction of sisterly behaviour?

Its interesting to note how the term 'sisterly' has been interpreted as 'you must stick together against all reason''

OK, but what did you mean though?
You accused me of not being very sisterly for not agreeing, I assumed because I'm a woman and therefore we all together as one?
Did it mean something else? If so, what? Genuinely interested
Feel I should be marching with a banner in repentance now, something like a Sisters Unite one

And rather than abjure the company of all men ever, it’s beneficial to society to interact with and improve the behaviour of some men.

I can think off the top of my head of two ex-bosses whose treatment of women I took up with them, several random men on the street who I did not let push me around, my husband who in the early days of us going out did two not terrible things which showed a lack of respect for or understanding of women, my son who gets spoken to about the validity of his feelings and how he is allowed to feel sad and express it, and whom is read stories where I then remark upon the implicit or explicit misogyny or sexism in them, and the male pupils who’ve had their use of the word ‘gay’ or ‘tramp’ or whatever addressed.

I’m not going to stay away from all men. Even though the random men in the street especially probably wish I would.

^But you've agreed that he's likely to have done one of the things in that post.

That's weird surely? Simultaneously you agree that even nice men have done at least one of those things and then say your husband is a decent man?^

I know he’s done things on that list, he used to watch pornography and has visited lap dancing clubs.

He had an epiphany about his own male entitlement when reading a book about veganism. He realised that not everything on the planet was there for his pleasure and he wasn’t entitled to exploit other beings bodies just because he had always been taught he could. That other living things dignity and safety is more important than his sensual pleasure.

Sounds really simple but I don’t think he’d ever really thought about it before and it totally changed the way he was and acted.
He’s continuously disappointed that so many other men he knows don’t feel that way and is shocked that his is seen as an extreme view.

I've had some horrendous abusive experiences with men. I also find it difficult to live with the fact that they don't really consider us to be equal human beings. Even nice dh treats me as though I'm incompetent at times just because I'm autistic and a bit clumsy. I hold down a responsible job ffs.

I have two teen/young adult sons and dh in the house and they leave it in a mess and don't clean up properly. I hate the way they assume I'm there to do it. I'm the only one in the house who goes to work and I'm tired and fed up.

I find men to be lazy, arrogant and entitled. They also seem to be somewhat dysfunctional and have issues as well.

Calvinsmam

But how can you love your husband, or son, or teach boys when you fundamentally believe that males are going to do those things?

I feel really sad for anyone that must spend their entire life either fearful or distrusting of those around them. Do you just wait for the day when your husband betrays you in some way because there is such an inevitability to your posts?

And I’ve never once said all men have done something on that list.

Of course some men haven’t.
Decent men exist.

But statistically lots of men have done something on that list and some of those men will be ‘nice men’.

They also seem to be somewhat dysfunctional and have issues as well

That's true of both sexes to be fair, there's a lot of dysfunctional women out there with issues too.
Although I'm with you on the expecting women being the ones to tidy up etc, yes a lot are like that and that does my head in.

I feel really sad for anyone that must spend their entire life either fearful or distrusting of those around them. Do you just wait for the day when your husband betrays you in some way because there is such an inevitability to your posts?

I’m not fearful or distrustful of the people around me actually.
The comment was about a generic sample of men.

I'm a bit shocked at the behaviour exhibited by husbands you seem to consider nice or decent.

Bloody hell. You have the cheek to have a go at women on here that you don't consider to be supporting women over men but then wave the flag for your decent husbands doing that?

I may well be seen by some of you as defending men on here but no way would I be putting up with men who did that or behaved like that.

Do you just wait for the day when your husband betrays you in some way because there is such an inevitability to your posts?

Are you aware how incredibly rude and unfeeling this question is? You say you're sad about the women who find themselves struggling with a dislike of men, so why would you ask this kind of question in this way?

As it happens, I do find it very difficult to trust my husband and most relationships of any kind I've had with men have taken a lot of work to get to a decent level of trust. I'm sharing that for the benefit of other women in a similar position to know they aren't alone, because I have a feeling that my disclosure will just be a point of incredulous derision from those arguing that it is silly to be distrustful of men at all ever.

I think a lot of this, not including actual crimes, but about entitled behaviour, laziness, misogynistic views is down to how you let people treat you.

People do what you let them get away with.

FloralBunting

I wasn't addressing it to you.