I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Do you think it's rational that I should be wary of all women?

Given that women (as a group) aren't anywhere near the threat that men (as a group) are, well, no. It wouldn't be in the slightest bit rational.

That's kind of the point of the thread.

The point of the thread isn't 'there are no bad women, now, or at any time in history', right?

Whereas there is, and always has been a preponderance of bad men, which is why many women are wary (the bad ones don't come with labels, unhelpfully). They're also invariably physically bigger and stronger. And this is why some women are wary.

Oh ok.

So if I post that I now avoid women, am wary of any woman who approaches my house, won't open the door to any unknown woman you would agree with me and understand would you?

That sounds like a sensible way to live based on my experience?

I just said it wouldn't be rational. So why would I agree with you...?

Do you think it's rational that I should be wary of all women?

I think that with that isolated case it would be unusual for that to happen but if you did feel that way it would be healthy to be able to talk about it.

If you lived in a matriarchy where women committed the most violence and society was desensitised to female violence against females to the extent that it was a very common form of entertainment in films, books, tv shows, if so many women were downloading images of abused children that the police couldn’t keep up with pressing charges anymore, if the police were putting out warnings telling people to run in twos and not wear headphones to stop a woman from sexually assaulting you when you went for a run, if women killed two partners a week and over 90% of violent crime was committed by women?
Then I’d think it was much more likely you’d be wary of women.

No it wouldn't be rational, even you say so - and that's what we're saying, it's not rational either way
but going by the logic on here it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do - be wary and stay away from them all - which is what I assume weetabix means too

but going by the logic on here it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do

I'm thinking maybe logic (or perhaps understanding?) isn't your strong point?

Weetabix's isolates incident vs everything outlined in Calvins' most recent post.

Yeah, they're the same...

SparkiePolastri

You know what? That someone came into my home while we were asleep in our beds, rifled through our stuff, took my handbag which contained items personal to me, stole a watch which was a present given to 25 years previously, stole our car which I relied on to get to hospital for treatment and then stole the money from my bank accounts by using my contactless bank cards repeatedly, that's violating.

Do you know what they feels like? To be burgled is bad enough. To be burgled whilst you and your children are at your most vulnerable - another level.

It matters not a jot to me the overall stats relating to the type of person that did it. 1 person did it. That person, and only that person, is to blame. Not every other person who shares the same characteristics.

If you've been unlucky to have 3 or 4 people offend against you - that is 3 or 4 out of millions. That is how I would look at it because I couldn't live my life in fear. I just refuse to do it.

wheet and glitter

Do you believe we live in a patriarchy? Or do you think men and women are pretty much equal now?

GlitterStick

Thank you. That's exactly what I meant.

Not every other person who shares the same characteristics.If you've been unlucky to have 3 or 4 people offend against you - that is 3 or 4 out of millions. That is how I would look at it because I couldn't live my life in fear. I just refuse to do it

Exactly this - as in my original post, as in I refuse to live my life in a state of fear and distrust and always assuming the worst, and I see people as PEOPLE and judge them accordingly.

Calvinsmam

People aren't equal. That is how I think.

People aren't equal. Some commit crimes. Some are awful. Some are pig ignorant.

But the vast vast majority of people are kind and decent. And if you look around and are open to it you see it everywhere.

And that is how I live my life.

There’s a thread running at the minute about a small ‘spy’ camera on eBay that is being advertised with an image of a woman in their underwear with the implication being ‘use this camera to spy on women’.
There have been 185 of these cameras sold and that’s from just one seller.
Do you think an equal number of men and women will be buying these cameras to install and spy on unsuspecting people for sexual gratification?
Or will it be mostly men?

But the vast vast majority of people are kind and decent. And if you look around and are open to it you see it everywhere. And that is how I live my life

I need a heart emoticon, I like that - that's exactly the same outlook and default thinking mindset as me

It's incredibly violating.

It's still an isolated incident. A drop in the ocean compared with male offending and male violence.

Again, the inability to understand class-level analysis makes this an impossible discussion.

And also again, to reiterate: all the men in my immediate life are lovely. This doesn't stop me actually noticing what happens in the world.

*People aren't equal. That is how I think.

People aren't equal. Some commit crimes. Some are awful. Some are pig ignorant.

But the vast vast majority of people are kind and decent. And if you look around and are open to it you see it everywhere.

And that is how I live my life.*

I agree the vast majority of people are kind and decent, but there is a disproportionate amount of men committing crimes against women (and men actually).
By saying ‘people are the problem’ you completely eliminate any chance of understanding why men are more violent. And if we can’t name it and understand it how can we fix it?
Male violence IS an issue in our society, and unless we address it it will remain that way.

But this is my point.

Risks, statistics etc don't make any difference.

You might say the risk of that happening to me was small. Ok. It didn't make me feel any better when it happened.

If you want to live your life constrained by statistics well that's up to you I suppose. It has no bearing on me. What does affect me is when you let that philosophy spill out and affect other people - so expecting men not to do something or treating male pupils differently.

Nothing wrong with addressing it, of course it should be addressed, but to stay away from all of them or not like them all (all?) very much on the actions of a few and not the individual is not a state I'd want.
I'm not about to think myself a little victim just by default of being female and that half the entire population hates us ("they hate us" statement said like fact upthread) like one big lumpy mass of they're all out to get us.
If that's the mindset of some any fear and hatred makes more sense
People are people.

Male violence IS an issue in our society, and unless we address it it will remain that way.

So do you think that the OP refusing to give a man her parking ticket will help to tackle the problem of male violence?

Pages ago I posted how I have raised my son and how it is the role of all parents to raise boys to be decent men. I got the predictable "oh it's a woman's job is it" comments.

All that's ever posted is that it's up to men to tackle men's behaviour yet suddenly it can be solved by women discussing it?

SandAndSnow, I think your response is perfectly rational given your experiences. I have men in my life that I love, but I am wary of 'men in general' when I'm out and about/travelling alone. And street harrassment, yeah. That said, I've also come across some pretty scary girls and women!

Take care of yourself and do what you feel is right for you. At the same time, try not to let past experiences mean you close yourself off from forming new male contacts and friendships that you might enjoy.

You might say the risk of that happening to me was small. Ok. It didn't make me feel any better when it happened.

No one is expecting you to feel better because the risk was smaller. No one was suggesting that.

If you want to live your life constrained by statistics well that's up to you I suppose.

I’m not constrained by statistics I’m constrained by male behaviour.

It’s not the statistic that is telling women to run in pairs and not wear headphones to minimise sexual assault by a man, it’s men assaulting women.

so expecting men not to do something or treating male pupils differently.

I’ve missed on the thread where this was being condoned and people were saying this was perfectly ok.

And we're being told off for stopping people from posting about their experiences - which is neither solving nor tackling anything is it?

It's just words.

but to stay away from all of them or not like them all (all?) very much on the actions of a few and not the individual is not a state I'd want.

Arghhhh oh my goodness. Seriously???

That’s NOT what the vast majority of people on this thread are saying!!!!

Preferring the company of women and/or being wary of men due to male violence is not saying you don’t like ALL men just for being a man and you refuse to interact with men.

Preferring the company of women and/or being wary of men due to male violence is not saying you don’t like ALL men just for being a man and you refuse to interact with men.

not saying you do, but what about the parking ticket scenario upthread? what was all that about? The bloke hadn't done anything wrong, but someone decided to not do a kindness just cos it's a man innit and he's not getting one.
Just sheer pettiness and nastiness because of their sex

So do you think that the OP refusing to give a man her parking ticket will help to tackle the problem of male violence?

Of course I don’t. And neither did she.

She was saying that she has become tired from living in a patriarchy and disappointmented by the behaviour of men in her life and she’s aware it’s affecting the way she interacts with people.

I don’t think she was saying that was a good thing, just that it’s happening and can we have a discussion about it please.

he'd probably be cheating on his wife, searching underage porn etc.

but the number of decent blokes is low compared with the knob heads

A sensible and balanced discussion including that most men are knobheads or paedos.

And also again, to reiterate: all the men in my immediate life are lovely. This doesn't stop me actually noticing what happens in the world.

Well damn it, that seems unlikely no ? How do you explain that, extreme luck ? Chance ? I mean how ?

The level of debate is absurd. Men have been violent since the dawn of human history, it has motivated justice systems, police, laws prison and etc. Somehow you expect that todays men can just stop all violence somehow, and all of them are responsible for it. Who is it that actually does the grunt work of locking up violent men and catching them ? That's right it's men, who are likely paedophiles and knobheads themselves. Maybe they just shouldn't bother ?

I did offer the OP and women with similar feelings advice, and I reiterate it - stay away from men, avoid having sex with them and if you already married one, well that was a bit silly, unless of course you are one of the many ones who somehow managed to not only find a good man in the small pool of men you met but one you want to spend your entire life with ? Despite preferring women.

Give over, honestly.