I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

I must be another one not womaning or parenting correctly, perhaps I ought to pipe down as well.

It's just words.

Well, topics come into it. As do endless fallacies, whataboutisms, flying monkeys, forced teaming and so many QEDs the mind boggles.

Some people might perceive this - and we all know subjective perception is infallible catechism, right? Or if we don't, we're bigots? - as entirely intentional.

It’s not the statistic that is telling women to run in pairs and not wear headphones to minimise sexual assault by a man, it’s men assaulting women.
But statistically only 10% of rapes are committed by a stranger. I don't know the circumstances so how many of those 10% occur whilst a lone woman is out jogging wearing headphones I don't know. But the greater risk is from someone known to the woman.

So whilst jogging with a friend might make you feel safer does it actually make you any safer? Again, if you want to live like that then that's your choice.

But if you are a teacher who potentially punishes boys more harshly than girls because of your internalised bias then that's not right.

Sheelala

Oh I forgot about. Plus the lists posted somewhere in the middle of the thread detailing all that all men do wrong.

^But statistically only 10% of rapes are committed by a stranger. I don't know the circumstances so how many of those 10% occur whilst a lone woman is out jogging wearing headphones I don't know. But the greater risk is from someone known to the woman.

So whilst jogging with a friend might make you feel safer does it actually make you any safer? Again, if you want to live like that then that's your choice.^

But the police have actually put a statement out asking women to do this because so many women have been raped jogging. Maybe there’s a seriel rapist out there at the moment, maybe there’s more than one, I don’t know, but it’s enough of a risk for the police to ask women to modify their behaviour.

It’s not me ‘wanting to live my life this way’, it’s me listening to the advice of the police.

But if you are a teacher who potentially punishes boys more harshly than girls because of your internalised bias then that's not right.

I agree. So are we allowed to discuss our internalised biases and what might have caused them in the first place?

I stopped engaging with the discussion some time ago but would like to say, if the point made of treating male pupils differently is supposed to relate to me, I’ve pointed out why my preference for the company of women and distrust of men as a sex class does not affect my teaching of boys, and as Calvins has pointed out, most of us have made a similar point.

I’ve said I don’t treat male pupils worse than female ones and that I have personal experience of being liked and disliked as a teacher by pupils in more or less equal numbers from both sexes. You may believe I can’t hold my views and not treat male pupils differently or worse, and you’re entitled to that belief, but you can’t prove it and no one, including me, has said that treating male pupils differently would be a-ok with them.

One of the things which makes me a good teacher to both sexes is my ability to understand and deal in both specifics and generalities when required, and not to conflate or fail to see the distinction between the two.

Not directing it at anyone in particular.

Those things are quite likely, and most of the men we see walking around are statistically going to be guilty of one or more of rape, abusive behaviour/DV, sexual assault or harassment, cheating or dodgy sexting or porn searches. Including the "nice" ones.

If I were a teacher and posted these views would you think me capable of hiding my beliefs and treating boys equally? Say we change men for any other group? Would you believe me if I said that I am not in any way prejudiced against members of that group?

In my teaching career, the times I have been inappropriately touched or spoken to in a sexual way have always been by male pupils. Around 7 times that I can recall.

I still make sure I’m never in a closed classroom alone with a male or a female pupil, even though I might be entitled on that evidence to believe that this safeguarding risk is more likely to happen with a male pupil.

Because I’m a good teacher and I treat my pupils as individuals.

Glad to hear it Weetabix. I can’t speak to that opinion as I don’t think I hold it as strongly or as concretely as it is voiced there.

But statistically it’s true that a lot of men have committed DV, downloaded violent pornography or cheated.

That’s just a fact.

Is a teacher not allowed to know a fact now.

I give up.

It is true, Calvins. Essentially my distrust of men as a sex class is because of that statistical likelihood of behaviour I see as criminal or damaging or unpleasant (etc.).

It isn’t hiding my beliefs though to then treat the pupils I teach as individuals - as just as likely to be the ones who don’t do those things as the ones who do, i.e. from an unbiased point of view. I’m terrible at Maths (luckily not my subject) but that makes sense to me from a probability point of view.

But as I said, the general issues with the sex class aren’t ones I consciously project onto individuals.

I can speak to that opinion quite easily Weetabix. No you would not be allowed to hold that opinion and be a teacher. Just as it would not be acceptable to say that I feel especially vulnerable around young black men as they are statistically more likely to be involved in knife crime than a white man would be. Dislike men and you can still be a great teacher and influence on young men though. You read it here first.

Nice straw man there. Well done you. Ignoring the 7 sexual assaults like a trooper.

Is anyone able to explain how the positions of not liking men and then forming the most significant and closest relationship you have with a man, are compatible ? The latter would rule out the former, no matter how much you claim not to like men.

NAMALT I suppose, but you must accept that statistically your husband's are doing all the bad things too ? Why take that risk ?

So any woman who avoids sitting in a train carriage alone with a man they don’t know in the evening would not be allowed to be a teacher. That should thin us out considerably.

.....waits for user to say "straw man"

“Is anyone able to explain how the positions of not liking men and then forming the most significant and closest relationship you have with a man, are compatible ? ”

People have explained this several times on the thread already. If you find it hard to grasp, try my dog/cat analogy. It might help.

It's been explained countless time Sheelala, and is the difference between the individual and the class/group.

It's pretty simple.

Scipio - I’d be very pleased to have someone who tries to treat boys and girls equally teach my children. Because most teachers aren’t aware of their bias to treat boys more favourably.

I don’t blame them personally, we all live in a patriarchy. But at least you are trying to address this. Most teachers don’t have your level of self awareness.

Thank you for this.

But given you believe that statistically all men have done some or all of the above, how do you allow any of them to get close enough to find out if they are a good one or not?

That post also asserts that even the "nice ones" have done it. So they are saying your son, your husband etc etc.

That seems an aggressive way to ask 'how do people build trust'.

People have countless times said as well though that even though the class group as a whole may be statistically more violent, just because they don't agree on not liking them all because of this and seeing everyone as individuals doesn't mean they're denying any statistics/class/group.
I take people as I find them.

Any man who holds the opinion that women are generally irritating and annoying and best avoided (his wife is ok though) is not a man I want teaching my children.

Why should your prejudice get a pass just because you feel feminism provides the intellectual justification for it? Where would that leave us ?