The virtue signalling gillette advert

[rubyroot]

I see myself as a feminist, have done for a while.

My bloke (who is a pretty masculine SAHH) said he found it insulting.

I had a look and thought it wasn't that bad, but then noticed that they put a few decent images of men on and then say some is not enough and then say we need to teach our boys not to be boys.

What I also noticed is that the 'good men' tend to be black and it therefore seems to be focussed on white masculinity- 1 of the 'bad men' is black and 5 of the 'good men' are black... interesting

Anyhow, I was considering the advert and I think it wouldn't be so bad, but then the ' some' part implies that most men are similar to those on the first part of the vid. So it got me thinking about the men I know and I don't know any men like the ones on the ad- at all! It's really not fair on the majority of men, and I am starting to understand why there is a backlash amongst white men who feel that they are being misrepresented.

And yes I will let my son (he's one) do boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore. He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy and there is a certain biological element there. I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her- all those things we see as masculine.

Sorry meant to edit that- they don't say we should teach our sons not to be boys- but it is implied with the 'boys will be boys' comment.

“He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy and there is a certain biological element there”

If it’s biological, why would you need to teach him?

“boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore.”

These are not boy things. Would you stop girls if they did the same?

You've missed the point. 'boys will be boys' is frequently used to excuse awful behaviour. The advert is saying challenge negative behaviour, don't excuse it.

Providing for family, nurturing family, being a decent human being towards one's partner are not exclusively masculine traits.

He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy

Surely the only masculine 'thing' about boys [and men] is their penis?

Everything else can be a boy thing or a girl thing?

How do you 'be masculine'? Is it 'dressing' your penis on the correct side?

*“boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore.”

These are not boy things. Would you stop girls if they did the same?*

Absolutely not- I would encourage it. I used to believe nurture over nature- now I have a child and have seen other friend's children I do think there's a biological element to how we behave. I do think women are more sensitive and caring- this is not a bad trait. I think boys tend to boy more active and impulsive and I think girls tend to think things through a bit more. Not that they wouldn't explore, but I would expect boys would be 'more on the go'

Its not about teaching it per se. I spose if its biological then you are nurturing the biological traits which are already there.

It’s not “virtue signalling” (stupid right wing term)

You are correct about the advert not being virtue- signalling.

I disagree that "virtue- signalling" is a stupid right - wing term.

*providing for family, nurturing family, being a decent human being towards one's partner are not exclusively masculine traits.

Totally agree- I am the breadwinner in my family -but my other half is still the provider in so many other ways . They're not exclusively masculine traits but they are typically masculine traits that I feel comfortable encouraging

I used to believe nurture over nature- now I have a child and have seen other friend's children I do think there's a biological element to how we behave. I do think women are more sensitive and caring- this is not a bad trait. I think boys tend to boy more active and impulsive and I think girls tend to think things through a bit more. Not that they wouldn't explore, but I would expect boys would be 'more on the go'

Its not about teaching it per se. I spose if its biological then you are nurturing the biological traits which are already there

I'm the mother of a son. I disagree with every thing in your post.

*Surely the only masculine 'thing' about boys [and men] is their penis?

Everything else can be a boy thing or a girl thing?

How do you 'be masculine'? Is it 'dressing' your penis on the correct side?*

It depends your view on the nature/nurture debate. As I said I used to feel it was more nurture and now I believe it is more nature- but nurture plays a massive part.

I think there's quite a bit of evidence for the nature side of the debate

I do think women are more sensitive and caring

I'm not. Give me a chainsaw and tree to cut down any day, over looking after someone else's kids.

Do you not just understand that men, if they want to stop other men from killing women, have to start calling out bad behaviour when they see it, and not just leave it up to women to sort out?

Of course I understand that men need to call each other out- but the advert is implying it is the majority of men that behave in negative ways and that's not fair or true. I know of no men who behave in this way.

If it was on the other foot and had a load of negative stereotypes of women and women calling each other out for being gold diggers etc and women were insulted then people would generally understand why women were insulted.

I used to believe nurture over nature- now I have a child and have seen other friend's children I do think there's a biological element to how we behave. I do think women are more sensitive and caring- this is not a bad trait. I think boys tend to boy more active and impulsive and I think girls tend to think things through a bit more. Not that they wouldn't explore, but I would expect boys would be 'more on the go'

If I told you the personality traits of the children of my sisters and I, you wouldn't be able to tell which were boys and which were girls. An awful lot of this is confirmation bias and self-fulfilling.

I have 2 boys - as different from each other as chalk and cheese. DP finds my practical demeanor around sensitive/emotional issues incomprehensible. We're all a bundle of personality traits.

The advert shows that men can solve their own problems, that they are responsible for dealing with toxic masculinity, that they don't have to shrug and let boys bully each other or whatever. It's a positive advert, it's saying 'Men! You can do this, you've got the power to affect change'

Do you not just understand that men, if they want to stop other men from killing women, have to start calling out bad behaviour when they see it, and not just leave it up to women to sort out?

I don't think there's many men who would stand by and allow another man to kill a woman! I am sure there's many instances where men have intervened in domestic violence incidents etc.

Of course I understand that men need to call each other out- but the advert is implying it is the majority of men that behave in negative ways and that's not fair or true. I know of no men who behave in this way.

Men are killing 2-3 women a week.

Less than 1% of rapes end up in any sentence at all.

When they stop the above, we can start worrying about their hurt feelings about an advert.

had a load of negative stereotypes of women

Like the ones going on about bloating (yoghurt), or cellulite, or body hair (which most people have) or dieting.

Where's that Mitchell and Webb sketch where they point out that adverts aimed at women all boil down to 'sort yourselves out - you're disgusting' where as mens ones are all "you're awesome - have this awesome product".

One little advert about men taking responsibility for things that men do, and some men and women are having a real problem having the boot on the other foot.

"An awful lot of this is confirmation bias and self-fulfilling.*

I don't think it is as I used to think the opposite- I am quite a 'masculine woman' for instance but many of my traits are intrinsically feminine.

No. that needs to be taught, its not instinctive. In places where boys are taught to intervene, the rate of assaults goes down.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-43466365

If you leave it up to instinct the bystander effect kicks in.

*Men are killing 2-3 women a week.

Less than 1% of rapes end up in any sentence at all.

When they stop the above, we can start worrying about their hurt feelings about an advert.*

Not all men

*No. that needs to be taught, its not instinctive. In places where boys are taught to intervene, the rate of assaults goes down.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-43466365

If you leave it up to instinct the bystander effect kicks in.*

Agree- but most cases of rape and murder are in women's own homes in the private sphere so this is not relevant. Men I am sure would intervene if they were present.

An awful lot of this is confirmation bias and self-fulfilling.

I don't think it is as I used to think the opposite- I am quite a 'masculine woman' for instance but many of my traits are intrinsically feminine*

You are a person then - with likes and dislikes.

Yes I am @MargueriaPink but I do think there's some things which are essentially male and essentially female.

What like penises and vaginas? Yes one is definitely male and one is definitely female.

And yes I will let my son (he's one) do boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore. He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy and there is a certain biological element there.

Umm you need to think this all through a bit more. Most parents try and encourage their kids to be active. Boys things?? Most parents don’t teach?!?! Their boys to be masculine or their girls to be feminine. What does that even mean? Most of us are busy trying to encourage them to be kind, resilient and hard- working etc.