The virtue signalling gillette advert

[rubyroot]

I see myself as a feminist, have done for a while.

My bloke (who is a pretty masculine SAHH) said he found it insulting.

I had a look and thought it wasn't that bad, but then noticed that they put a few decent images of men on and then say some is not enough and then say we need to teach our boys not to be boys.

What I also noticed is that the 'good men' tend to be black and it therefore seems to be focussed on white masculinity- 1 of the 'bad men' is black and 5 of the 'good men' are black... interesting

Anyhow, I was considering the advert and I think it wouldn't be so bad, but then the ' some' part implies that most men are similar to those on the first part of the vid. So it got me thinking about the men I know and I don't know any men like the ones on the ad- at all! It's really not fair on the majority of men, and I am starting to understand why there is a backlash amongst white men who feel that they are being misrepresented.

And yes I will let my son (he's one) do boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore. He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy and there is a certain biological element there. I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her- all those things we see as masculine.

I’d like to add I have no ‘relationship’ with FlyingOink. I’m not sure what the hell that comment is about tbh

the victim is clearly imperfect. Just as I am for not wanting to be reminded that yep, still a woman at every turn
See this to me sounds like you don't want to hear that it is sexism you're encountering. That the protagonists are just arseholes. That it is just because of some other reason rather than the thousands of years of male entitlement, the weight of societal expectations and the fact men can get away with it most of the time. That's like trying to identify out of sexism. It just doesn't work.
I'm not picking on you, but it's an important point and I wanted to mention it.

I wish you all the best in your career in tech, I don't talk about work on these boards because of privacy issues so I won't confirm or deny I work in the industry. Your experience is 100% valid and I am only disagreeing with your point of view.

Oxytocindeficient
Oh I see, you dump me just before Valentine's Day eh?
(Only kidding!)
No I don't know where that came from, but I'm keen to avoid getting personal with that poster.

@FlyingOink you don't have to accept anythingif you're worried you look like a bully perhaps thinking about why that is might afford some insight? I can't paint you as anythingyour behaviour and your words are what stand, here.

Also, calling out specifically young women for not wanting to put their careers on the line--ageist, BTW. Why the hell is it up to a young woman (or any woman) to sort this out? Why is it up to women to deal with men's feelings about sexism? Why, in the vein of the Gillette advertisement, are men not dealing with this shit themselves.

Please educate yourself about stereotype threat. Please educate yourself about allyship. Please understand that sexists ARE arseholes, and that a woman in their presence is just one trigger for their arsehole behaviour, and that actually, her presence isn't the problem. Above all, stop victim blaming--the young woman in this scenario is the victim of a toxic workplace culture, and saying she should have handled it differently without commenting on what else should have gone down condones that culture.

Placebogirl

Why are you still going on about this and making false statements about the situation? Nobody blamed her, least of all anyone at work. Stop.

Any person who is a victim of prejudice or bullying of any kind at work, should be able to make a complaint and I would encourage any woman to do so. It is not appropriate for anyone not present for all of it, to complain on this woman’s behalf, she is an adult and we should encourage all women to complain about sexism if they feel able. Any implication that it is the sole responsibility of others is frankly, rather stupid. Of course we sympathised, more than once, with her and her unwillingness to name what was happening. That’s what we discussed, why young women do not want to call out sexism. That’s not ‘victim-blaming’. We also discussed what my DH and the managers did themselves, so any claim we didn’t comment on what else should have gone down is false.

Seriously, you’ve got the wrong end of the stick and certainly aren’t listening to my repeated attempts to explain a situation you refuse to accept for what it is and would rather twist things said here and in that situation in order to support your own experience and views. Just stop it.

@Oxy, there is text above blaming her. Why are you still going on about it? Indeed, why did you ask what your DH could have done if you didn't actually want feedback?

You're right, this individual situation isn't about me, but situations like this play out all over the tech industry on a daily basis. As a woman in this situation, you never know whether if you complain it will be counted against you. Women are routinely sacked for complaining. Routinely. You and FlyingOink have repeatedly told me that because I don't understand the exact particulars of this one situationwhich you have revised repeatedly to cast your DH in a better light every time I might point outthat what I have to say is of no value. TBH I don't really care whether it has value to you, but if there is a woman in tech reading this who is fed up to the back teeth, or wondering if this situation is normal or whether it is their fault, then what I have to say might help her. I wish someone had said the sort of things to me that I am saying now 20 years ago. I'm not going to shut up just because you think I am besmirching your DH. What he thinksand what you think, in fairnessare a lot less important to me that what any lurker woman in tech might think.

Placebogirl

Situations like this play out all over the world, every second of the day. Tech isn’t unique, it’s one of MANY situations where it is rampant. I get a lot of sexism just by being a renter, from agents and landlords. I asked a genuine question, seeking reasonable contributions, but also wanted to discuss the reluctance of young women to name sexism when they see it. I think dismissing it as ‘men being arseholes’ is not helpful, so I absolutely disagree with you there. Sexism is real and it ought to be identified correctly. No, I don’t think my husband did anything wrong by calling out sexism when he saw it. I think the woman involved responded very badly, and I don’t think it’s ‘victim-blaming’ to point that out. We all do need to tackle sexism better, men for sure, but I find many women to be our biggest battle in the fight for liberation. Too many don’t want to stand up for themselves or tell men when they’ve been sexist. Understanding why that is and discussing that, as we did here, is important. Women aren’t perfect and shouldn’t be infantilised. My husband also worried for his job, she’s employed and he’s a contractor. He knows people lose their job over stuff like this, we discussed that here. So I don’t really know what your problem is or why you want to twist events. You say you’re writing it for lurkers in tech? I don’t think that’s the reason at all. You’ve fought with another poster relentlessly about a difference of opinion, accusing her of all sorts, just because you really felt like we should of valued your contribution more than others, certainly more than we did. Sorry, just because you’re in tech doesn’t give your words any more weight. It might if your contributions were reasonable, but they’re not. They’re combative and rude. Nothing you’ve said would help any woman in tech with sexism, you’re dismissing it as nothing to do with her sex. So as long as you’re contributing something I think is harmful to the liberation of women, I’ll keep responding too. Sexism is real and plenty of so-called good men are responsible for it, every single day. So every single day I point out sexism when I see it. I will not dismiss it as people being arseholes. I will keep encouraging other men and women to do the same.

Are you hard of reading? Sexism IS men being arseholes. And by blaming women for it, as with this comment, find many women to be our biggest battle in the fight for liberation. Too many don’t want to stand up for themselves or tell men when they’ve been sexist. you demonstrate quite neatly that women can be great allies to sexists.

It is not up to women to solve sexism. It is up to men, most notably the sexists. Your DH doesn't want to be an allythat's fine, and it may be that quite genuinely his paycheck is more importantpresumably your family needs it to keep everything going, and it is a rare principle that should be defended over feeding one's children.

Again, though--why did you ask what your DH could have done differently if you didn't want suggestions, especially from those who are at this particular coal face?

Placebogirl

No I’m not hard of reading, stop insulting me you nasty aggressive person.

My husband has not said he doesn’t want to be an ally, you’ve twice claimed it and I’ve twice refuted it. He won’t put his job in jeopardy if women he’s trying to help actually don’t want his help, which is precisely what happened here. That doesn’t extend to the rear of his life.

I’m not an ally to sexists, you know nothing about me or my life experiences. How dare you fucking say that because I disagree with your conclusions or opinions on sexism in general. How fucking dare you. Women DO need to speak out, or we won’t ever deal with sexism. It’s a message I give to my daughter all the time: never put up with sexism. There’s nothing wrong with that message. It’s stupid to suggest otherwise. It’s up to ALL of us to defeat sexism, otherwise what the fuck is the point of all the feminist campaigning we do? If we just step back and leave it to men? What a dumb thing to say.

I did want suggestions, I disagree with yours, which I’m perfectly entitled to do. Your problem in this thread, is that you wanted to offer a suggestion and perspective that was disagreed with and at odds with other opinions, including mine. You can offer it, you did, but it was debated and disagreed with. That’s what you can’t handle. That’s why you keep going on and on about it, you want the last word, on MY story, and will bully and accuse until you get it. Enough with the insults, I’ve heard what you’ve had to say and I think it’s ugly nonsense that will not help women at all. So why don’t you stop offering the same unwanted opinion, and the insults? Why can’t you accept your opinion is not wanted? You’ve been heard. Enough.

Interesting, that you tone police me then swear at me and call me dumb. Interesting, that you bully me, and then saydespite the fact that I have repeatedly made the point that I am talking about the tech industry, rather than your DHthat I am bullying you and trying to own your story. Your DH doesn't have the cornerstone on the tech industry, and I can assure you that I know more about being a woman in tech than he does. Why can't you accept that it isn't all about your DH, and that my opinion is worth the same as yours, and hard won?

But, ok, engaging with your arguments:

1. Women can't solve sexism. We can talk and complain and name and consciousness raise until we are blue in the face, but unless men stop being sexist, then sexism will exist and affect women. QED.
2. Women in tech lose their jobs, their livelihoods and their careers for calling out sexism. Even if they aren't directly sacked, their workplaces become untenable. This is one of the most powerful things I have read on the issue cate.blog/2014/07/28/the-day-i-leave-the-tech-industry/ but it is also the tip of the iceberg. It's fantastic that you're teaching your daughter not to accept sexism--I'm doing the same. I am not idealistic enough to assume that not accepting it will always be cost free for her, though.
3. The feminist campaigning can help us to change laws and social norms, and those changes can protect women after the sexism has happened. It might even mean that some folks change their ways, preventing some of it. Still NOT our responsibility, though, any more than fixing more violent acts that men perpetrate against women is. The Gillette ad is actually a call to men to step up.

Back to the specific story you've posted: you seem to be arguingand please, by all means correct me if I am wrongthat your DH shouldn't have to risk his job standing up against sexism, while this woman should have done. Are you? Because if you truly, deeply believe that she made the wrong call about her own life, and that she should have stood up regardless, then you ARE asking her to risk her career--not just her job in that one place, but her job anywhere. I might be willing to take that risk, but I don't think I can make that call for others.

I've said it once and I will say it again: when I joined in on this thread, I actually really felt for you and your DH. Because of the prevalent culture of sexism in tech, navigating this shit is hard for anyone who doesn't like sexism. I offered a suggestion he could take or leave. I never said he had to take it. I still feel for your DH, because he is still stuck in that toxic culture (as am I). I have considerably less sympathy for you than I did though, because your whole response has been to tell me that my response isn't just wrong in your DH's case (fine, not-useful advice is not-useful), but in all cases (not fine, because it denies my own personal lived experience).

My patience wore out after your repeated slurs, so yes I swore at you. You deserved it. I haven’t bothered reading your last comment in full, it’s going to be more of the same drivel and you’re really not worth any more of my time.

Hi. At the risk of being accused of trolling (which I am genuinely not), I wonder if a different perspective on this might be of interest...

The film starts by outlining all the horrible things men are guilty of, from sexual harassment to belittling women at work by mansplaining. The thrust of the second part is that men can be better. For Gillette to assert that only some men are getting it right, it can only follow that most of us are getting it wrong. That we, somehow, condone or are complicit in this kind of unpleasant behaviour.

To tar men so widely is, at best, risky marketing and, at worst, ugly identity politics. I don’t think many men appreciate being told that most of us are are failing to “say the right thing” or “act the right way”. I don’t know any men who would condone the genuinely negative behaviour protrayed in the film.

When it comes to this sort of thing, men seem to be an easy target at the moment. Just because there is a small proportion of seriously horrible men, it doesn’t feel right to take shots at the entire gender. This isn’t snowflake thinking. I’m not crying into my pillow at night! I’m just tired of the assumption that my gender makes me a bad person. I don’t think a similar film aimed at any other group would go down any better with them.

Bracing for impact, but hoping for an interesting discussion.

I’m just tired of the assumption that my gender makes me a bad person.

No one said your sex makes you a bad person. But a basic risk assessment mean that as you are an unknown man I cannot assume you are a safe person. I have to take precautions until you have demonstrated you are civilised, consistently, over a period of time.

Many of us are tired of the assumption that our sex makes us fair game, or lesser humans. We get that its not you doing it, but men as a class are responsible for most of the violence towards men, women and children and it needs to just. fucking. stop.

Womens lives seem to be invisible to most men. You have no idea how wearing it is having this conversation.

Thanks mate. There's a big long thread here for you to read through, and lots of other threads on FWR for to read and learn why men as a class are a problem for women.

Do take the time to peruse them.

I’m just tired of the assumption that my gender makes me a bad person.

So are women. That's kind of the point.

I don’t think many men appreciate being told that most of us are are failing to “say the right thing” or “act the right way”.

Well that’s too bad. Children are corrected all the time and nobody prioritises their hurt feelings if they’re behaving in a way that requires discipline/modification. We really shouldn’t need to point out to men that they need to speak up when they see or hear other men behaving badly, yet here we are. Metoo showed that actually a lot of you are enabling the bad men, by inaction. If you’re not one of those men, if you’re already standing up and calling out sexism including harassment when you see it, the ad isn’t directed at you. If you’re not doing those things, then I’m afraid you need to be told and your hurt feelings aren’t what’s important here. We are trying to end harmful predatory behaviour that affects most women at some or many points of their lives. I don’t exactly appreciate being instructed, since I was young, how to adapt my behaviour so I don’t get assaulted, or harassed. Yet I have been, relentlessly, for over 40 years. I don’t appreciate the endless marketing to women telling us how to be ‘strong’ or ‘sexy’ or how to mother right. Yet women are subject to a huge volume of advertising that does all that and more. I honestly and frankly, do not care if you ‘dont appreciate’ being told to stand up against rape culture and toxic masculinity. I’m not sure why you expect us to. Imagine telling a black person you don’t appreciate being reminded of racism and how your race has contributed to it.

it doesn’t feel right to take shots at the entire gender.

Not gender, sex. The Male sex.

My husband has a contribution for you JustASimpleBloke: if you have to listen to this story, these ads, the conversation around violent behaviour, predatory behaviour... if the worst you have to do is listen, even though you think you’re perfect and don’t require a lesson here, then you’re just going to have to suck it up or close your ears. If this message has to be told to boys and men, for the next, 200 years, whatever it takes, so the harassment, the violence and sexual assaults ends, then that is what is going to happen. We have a massive task to change cultural habits that have harmed women and men for centuries. So this message needs to be spoken many many more times yet, and if the worst you have to endure is listening to women and other men tell you what you can do to help, then count yourself very very lucky.

Thank you for replying.

We really shouldn’t need to point out to men that they need to speak up when they see or hear other men behaving badly... Metoo showed that actually a lot of you are enabling the bad men, by inaction.

I agree that we shouldn't have to tell men to speak up and my point is that for most men, you don't. It is that assertion I take issue with. Gillette's message is one that needs to be said and heard, but I am not sure it's best done in such a critical way. And not by a company that is trying to sell things to most men. Metoo has shown that there are a lot of scumbags out there, sure, but not that most men are scumbags or condoning abuse.

I don’t appreciate the endless marketing to women telling us how to be ‘strong’ or ‘sexy’ or how to mother right. Yet women are subject to a huge volume of advertising that does all that and more.

This is true and I think that a lot of that marketing is unpleasant and patronising. However, there are very few adverts that start from the premise that most women are bad people.

If this message has to be told to boys and men, for the next, 200 years, whatever it takes, so the harassment, the violence and sexual assaults ends, then that is what is going to happen.

It is sad, but there will always be a small minority of predatory men, whose behaviour will not be changed by a razor advert. I genuinely believe that most men are good people, who will step in if they see any of the negative behaviour shown in the advert.

Do take the time to peruse them.

Thanks Floral - I do and I always find something interesting to read.

Well, if most men are decent chaps who will step up, then theres really no need to worry about one schmaltzy advert bruising their egos, is there? If I see an ad celebrating positive behaviour I already do, I don't have an enormous whinge about it, I shrug and maybe feel a bit smug that I already do it.

Seriously, you need to ask yourself why your response to women pointing out that a large proportion of men behave badly towards them is to defend yourself.

The word here is TOXIC masculinity. Not masculinity in itself.

Seriously, you need to ask yourself why your response to women pointing out that a large proportion of men behave badly towards them is to defend yourself.

Yes agreed. But also not just himself, but ‘most men’. There have been thousands of women telling stories that show that our lived experience does not support the claim that most men are already doing what the ad is asking for. The opposite, in my experience and that of my friends, is true.

An example is that rugby players in NZ never speak out against other rugby players who are guilty of hitting their partners. One incident happened last season and not one other man in rugby said a word, other than the guy in question was ‘unlucky’ to miss out on a particular contract- he got a better one in the end.

I agree a company is not the ideal messenger, but seen as the ad industry is in fact part of our social commentary and they do send out all sorts of messages all the time, it shouldn’t be such a big deal this is one of them.

An example is that rugby players in NZ never speak out against other rugby players who are guilty of hitting their partners. One incident happened last season and not one other man in rugby said a word, other than the guy in question was ‘unlucky’ to miss out on a particular contract- he got a better one in the end.

All the other men can point to him and assure themselves that Not All Men. They don't need to do anything about it.

Just because there is a small proportion of seriously horrible men...
JustASimpleBloke I get where you're coming from. But if you look what you did here, you have framed the discussion around men who are "seriously horrible and who form a small proportion*. Those are the goalposts, according to you.
You don't get to set those parameters, unfortunately. Because not only are there more seriously horrible men than you think there are (they look pretty normal most of the time), your definition of seriously horrible might not agree with mine or some other woman's, and seriously horrible shouldn't be the benchmark for unacceptable behaviour. Is there a moderately horrible and a slightly horrible? What proportion of men are covered by these? What proportion is acceptable?
If only 0.5% of men were in any way horrible, by a previously agreed standard of horrible, how is that any comfort for the women affected by their behaviour? Do the remaining 99.5% of men call out the horrible behaviour? Do they try to prevent it? Do they prosecute it? When it happens do they take it seriously? Do they discuss it?
If your response to that is "why should they", to me that's proof the 0.5% is much higher. I don't get defensive about child sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Church. I might be Catholic but I know I'm not abusing any children, or covering up any abuse. I can watch as giants are torn down and safeguarding processes are put in place, and decision makers are held to account and I don't feel defensive at all. There are some horrendous jokes, memes and commentators out there who tar all Catholics with the same brush. We're a minority but not marginalised. So, it's quite similar to the defensive anguish poured out by the gallon over a razor advert.
Why do men take that advert personally? It's not the only advert imploring the viewer to do something. Were men upset by public safety films? Did they produce reams and reams of text about how they always used a seatbelt and never let children play near open water and didn't drive after drinking and how dare they insinuate most men were reckless drivers?
The reaction has been interesting to watch. The defensiveness speaks volumes. And women can't understand why this has upset men, when women have spent their whole lives being implored to act this way and not act that way.

Oh and
there are very few adverts that start from the premise that most women are bad people needs something to back it up. There are tons and tons of adverts that imply a woman is lazy, ugly, unsexy, unlovable, disorganised, a poor mother, a terrible wife, etc if she doesn't buy a certain product or service. You might not have even noticed them. Adverts aimed at you don't take this approach because when they do, as in this example, you all lose your shit. But they work well on women, sadly.