The virtue signalling gillette advert

[rubyroot]

I see myself as a feminist, have done for a while.

My bloke (who is a pretty masculine SAHH) said he found it insulting.

I had a look and thought it wasn't that bad, but then noticed that they put a few decent images of men on and then say some is not enough and then say we need to teach our boys not to be boys.

What I also noticed is that the 'good men' tend to be black and it therefore seems to be focussed on white masculinity- 1 of the 'bad men' is black and 5 of the 'good men' are black... interesting

Anyhow, I was considering the advert and I think it wouldn't be so bad, but then the ' some' part implies that most men are similar to those on the first part of the vid. So it got me thinking about the men I know and I don't know any men like the ones on the ad- at all! It's really not fair on the majority of men, and I am starting to understand why there is a backlash amongst white men who feel that they are being misrepresented.

And yes I will let my son (he's one) do boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore. He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy and there is a certain biological element there. I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her- all those things we see as masculine.

FlyingOink

Aww that’s so nice, thank you. He really is, not perfect and still learning about what women live with but the important thing is he listens and he wants to do what he can. We met very young, after I got kicked out of home in my fathers violent rage, and he got kicked out by his not nice stepmother! He’s the opposite of my father, probably what attracted me. Kind, thoughtful, and extremely intelligent. He just hates working in such a male centred industry, he thinks it weakens it because women offer something different and obviously because it’s not good for men to spend all their time with other men. We’ve been moving towards ‘frugal living’ both so we can get out of renting but also to do good things with our money. If we can live on as little as possible, we want to do things like help animals.. out of the blue he said, and wouldn’t it be nice to build cob homes ( we plan to for ourselves ) for women fleeing violence who have pets? I almost cried. Often women stay in DV situations because while there might be refuges for women & children, they can’t take their pets. Men often end up abusing or killing animals left behind. I really couldn’t believe he even thought about it. Bless him.

@FlyingOink Saying "this is happening because you're X" (which may or may not be what @Oxy's husband said, but it is what she wrote in the first post) is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT animal than saying "this is happening because they are sexist". It's really, really fucking important linguistically to lay the blame at the foot of the discrimination, not at the foot of the characteristic.

And honestlymost of the time it's not going to be news to the person hearing it. They KNOW they're different, and they KNOW they are discriminated against. Having on'es own attention drawn to it repeatedly is a form of stereotype threat. For sure, lots of guys won't do anything in front of other guys (as is the case with @Oxy's husbandhe didn't witness it). But far better than to commiserate with the victim of something you do witness is toas the ad sayscall it out yourself.

Placebogirl nope, still disagree entirely.

most of the time it's not going to be news to the person hearing it
Says you. Sometimes it's good to get that confirmation, that the abuse you are suffering is indeed racist or sexist or whatever.
If I was having a bad time with bullies at work (that's what this is, regardless of rank or job role) and some bloke said to me "they're doing it because you're a woman" OR "they're being sexist" the relief I would feel would be the same. The anger at the abusers would be the same. It would mean all the conversations in my head about my delivery or my management style or something else I must have been doing wrong can be erased, because another person (who happens to be male) has confirmed what I suspected but didn't dare admit or want to believe.
Also, if it is framed as "they're doing it because you're a woman" I don't agree that puts the emphasis on being a woman rather than them being sexist. It's not like you can opt out of being a woman, really.
"They're only bullying you because you're different" could have a victim blaming connotation, if the victim felt they could do something about their "difference". "They're only bullying you because you're black" doesn't. Because common sense dictates you can't opt out of being black.

I get that there's a difference between "this is happening because you are X" versus "this is happening because THEY are X" but in normal speech the difference isn't that clear and the intent behind the original speech would have been clear.
The poor guy has already decided not to bother next time, which is really sad.

Sometimes it's good to get that confirmation, that the abuse you are suffering is indeed racist or sexist or whatever.

It absolutely is, having been in that situation before many times.

@FlyingOink how nice for you that you have the privilege of disagreeing with my lived experience. Also, there is a world of difference between "it's because they're sexist " and "it's because they're sexist and that is unacceptable". ONLY the latter actually avoids the stereotype threat and offers the support someone might need. Again, as a woman in tech, I've lived this stuff on a regular basis.

If I was having a bad time with bullies at work (because that's what this is regardless of rank or role). So...basically now you have come back to my original point. Ooookay then.

Gosh, I spent a lot of time clarifying what was said, making it clear he said it wasn’t acceptable etc

You don’t have to be a woman in tech to experience sexism. We’re all affected. It’s harder in predominantly male environments. I think it’s perfectly fine for anyone, regardless of whether or not we are in tech, to discuss the ‘lived experience’ of being a woman who experiences sexism. Saying that we have privilege because we are not in the tech industry, is weird and dismissive.

how nice for you that you have the privilege of disagreeing with my lived experience
Likewise I'm sure.
ONLY the latter actually avoids the stereotype threat and offers the support someone might need
That's your opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Finally you have no idea of my personal experience or what field I work in, so probably best not to make assumptions.

Interesting... you support an ad where women need protection from men, but we shouldn't encourage our boys to do this.

The ad's not saying women need "protection" from men. It is encouraging men as a sex class to take responsibility for sexism and violence towards women and call out other men when they observe these behaviours.

@FlyingOink *If I was experiencing this at work" tells me you have at some point worked somewhere this wasn't true. Also, I am not disagreeing with your lived experience, you have chosen not to share it--fine, your choice. But you have told me that my experience is wrong, which is in and of itself an act of privilege, so yeah, I'm gonna call it like I see it. If that makes you uncomfortable you might like to examine the reasons why.

@Oxy, I'm sure your husband, like many of the men I work with, some of whom, like your husband, are autistic, is lovely and doing his best. I am sure that he is discriminated against because people are prejudiced against neurodiversity. You asked what he could have done differently, I gave you an answer based on what you posted. If it's useful, take it. If it's not, don't--and I really mean that. Taking advice that isn't useful is counterproductive at best! At this point, though TBH given that I am not the only person who offered suggestions and NONE of them have been useful, I suspect the question was rhetorical. Also fine, but I wish I'd known, because I would not have bothered to examine my own negative experiences (which is tiring and painful) to try to help someone I viewed as a fellow warrior for the right side of things based on your description of him. You're defending him from someone who actually thinks he's one of the good ones.

But you have told me that my experience is wrong
Nope. And nothing you've said has made me feel uncomfortable. Why would it? As I said we can agree to disagree.
I hope your working life improves, best of luck to you.

Either that ad is meant for you, or you don't understand anything of the topic. In which case it was probably meant for you, but they underestimated people's ignorance.

@FlyingOink you have told me my reactions to abuse at work are my fault, and that I deserve to have low self esteem because of them. Crack on, then...with women like you around the patriarchy needs no help.

There is an irony that this whole ad feeds into this toxic stereotype that men must be strong, and general male disposability. Given that men are far more violent to one another than they are to women. Creating this expectation that all men should be policing each other will put some at significant risk of injury or even death.

you have told me my reactions to abuse at work are my fault, and that I deserve to have low self esteem because of them
Nonsense, I did nothing of the sort.

@FlyingOink if you can't see that you did that, you lack the empathy necessary to continue this conversation, or to discuss issues of oppression at all.

Placebogirl disagreeing with you isn't lacking in empathy, it's just disagreeing with you. And it's really not up to you what I discuss, you stated that the way the support was framed was destructive, I explained how in some circumstances it can be constructive, we disagreed and then you came out with you have told me my reactions to abuse at work are my fault, and that I deserve to have low self esteem because of them which is patently untrue.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, no need to make it personal.

I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her funny, I want my (possible future) daughter to do this too. GFor BF, I don't much care

@FlyingOink you've disagreed that my experience of my own oppression is valid or acceptablethat's pretty much the definition of lacking empathy. Sure, you can discuss what you like, but the way in which you discuss it is likely to have negative consequences for your interlocutor. Again, if you're happy with that, it is pretty much the definition of lacking empathy, but hey, you're rightwhich is the only thing that's important--so crack on.

you've disagreed that my experience of my own oppression is valid or acceptable
No.
No I didn't.
You said speaking as a woman in tech...there are a couple of things that he could do differently next time. TBC, I would not have made a complaint about his behaviour, but there were a couple of things he said that would have raised my hackles until I took a step back to think about them (and I am so used to doing this that your DH would probably not even have been aware of it)...He commented to her that it was happening because she's a womanit isn't, actually...If something like this happens in the future, he could stick with saying he doesn't think that behaviour is okthat is actually support enough, for most of us.
Which is your opinion. You can't talk for "most of us".
I said Pointing out that someone is being racist or sexist or homophobic can be really powerful, especially if the target has any internalised issues themselves.
Which is my opinion. And. Plus you weren't there. And you're not a man. So how can you know a: what was said other than what has been posted or b: how men recognise misogyny in each other.
Then you replied Saying "this is happening because you're X" (which may or may not be what Oxy's husband said, but it is what she wrote in the first post) is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT animal than saying "this is happening because they are sexist". It's really, really fucking important linguistically to lay the blame at the foot of the discrimination, not at the foot of the characteristic...And honestly--most of the time it's not going to be news to the person hearing it. They KNOW they're different, and they KNOW they are discriminated against.
Which is what I disagreed with. Sometimes the internalised misogyny or anxiety or previous history with the person can cause you to overlook that it's actually just sexism and in those cases it's helpful having someone point it out.
Oxy wrote Don’t misrepresent what my husband did thank you. He didn’t say it’s ‘because she’s a women’ in those words, which I clarified. He certainly didn’t blame her and made it clear. They did it because they are juvenile and sexist, which he made clear, they have a problem because they can’t handle the fact a women is telling them what to do. He made that clear. What he also said was, you don’t have to put up with that.
I'm not dismissing anything about what you've said or how you feel or how you prefer to deal with these issues or how you prefer other people to support you. It's not personal, please stop making it so.
It's not fair to call me a bully for disagreeing with you.

It's not fair to call me a bully for disagreeing with you.

Absolutely agree. Nothing FlyingOink said was invalidating your experience whatsoever and it’s absolutely an unfair misrepresentation. Both of us disagree with you that mentioning sexism is a problem. We both experience sexism so we are both entitled to that opinion, without you making it about ‘lacking empathy’.

@FlyingOink this is what you said about the actual victim, who IS a woman in tech and contrary to what you and @Oxy are trying to make out isn't her husband (who after ONE bad experience has decided he won't do anything about sexism ever again, great ally there): And if she internalises that, and feels bad about herself because of it, and allows abuse because it has affected her self esteem, none of that is his fault. Nope, of course not, because Oxy's husband is clearly the perfect ally, and the victim is clearly imperfect. Just as I am for not wanting to be reminded that yep, still a woman at every turn.

Of course you have both experienced sexism if you're women. From what you have said, neither of you have experienced it in tech. I have experience there, you don't. You can disagree that my experience is allowed or legitimate all you like, but it doesn't make it not my experience.

@Oxy, I get it n your case--you are loyal to your husband, and it's easier to assume that the woman in the situation is being unreasonable than it is to really look at your husband's behaviour. Maybe she even was unreasonable. None of us know, we weren't there. I think coming onto a thread about allies and saying "well my husband tried to be an ally one time and he got shat on for it" is a bit unproductive though.

@FlyingOink as far as I can tell your only interest in this thread is to show me how wrong I am, possibly to reinforce a relationship with Oxy, possibly to virtue signal about her husband, possibly because it makes you feel good to be right, maybe some other reason altogether. Ok, you win. You're right. You know more about being a woman in tech than I do. I hope that makes you happy.

I think people (and especially men) are tired of being preached at. This is especially true when the preacher is a corporation who does not care about the message, only how many razor blades they sell. I wonder how well the ad has worked and how long it has run for...

I think in the nature vs nurture debate concerning sex/gendered behaviour that too many (in both sides of the argument) have too much skin in the game to be objective. Personally I think hormones play a significant role in behaviour and boys do behave differently to girls (on average). However, society does, on the whole reinforce and exaggerate the instinctive element. But that is just my opinion and the research is very equivocal either way,

I do think that we should treat all children as individuals, though, and it can be just as destructive to try and address what people believe to be society’s bias by overly pushing in the other direction (eg discouraging play fighting between boys) as buying girls all pink and dressing them in impractical clothes.

after ONE bad experience has decided he won't do anything about sexism ever again, great ally there

I’ve not stated anything remotely like that. We are talking about a particular incident at work and his limitations as a contractor. You need to apologise.

I think coming onto a thread about allies and saying "well my husband tried to be an ally one time and he got shat on for it" is a bit unproductive though.

I don’t. I think it’s an important discussion and reflects on young women and their unwillingness to call out sexism. She was wrong to respond the way she did and I’m not giving anyone a free pass because they’re a woman. I believe our comments showed we understood her unwillingness to call what happened sexism, as it’s a tough industry to do that in.

I find your comments puzzling and unnecessarily aggressive, you make a lot of really unpleasant and rude assumptions about my husband who I’ve already stated isn’t a perfect ally, just like none of us are the perfect feminists. I’m not ‘virtue signalling’, I’m giving credit where it’s due and praising what I think are great qualities in my husband. I’m sorry that makes you so angry and rude, it’s a strange reaction to have. Are you only interested in bashing men? Are you only here to moan? Seriously you have massively overreacted on this thread and seem to think being in tech means you get to talk over us and berate us for having a small difference of opinion. You’re incredibly unpleasant and I would appreciate it if you stopped talking at me and nastily about myself or my husband. Your contribution here about my story is unwanted by me, you’ve got nothing of value to offer on this thanks.

Placebogirl it's really really not about you. This is a public forum and I won't accept being painted as a bully for having a different opinion to you on this. Your selective quoting doesn't even make sense, here is the section you have quoted from, in context:

This chap pointed out that the behaviour was driven by sexism. He can recognise that because he is a man and has lots of experience, having seen it many times before. She disagreed with him. That's up to her.
Him telling her he believed it was due to sexism is still totally valid. And if she internalises that, and feels bad about herself because of it, and allows abuse because it has affected her self esteem, none of that is his fault. It's not blaming her at all. Victim blaming and pointing out something he has seen before and recognises are not the same thing.

Which is really clear that it isn't victim blaming, I think. As I've said before, you can say You can disagree that my experience is allowed or legitimate all you like, but it doesn't make it not my experience. But I haven't ever tried to belittle your experience. From what you've said, you feel that you would prefer someone offering support to be really clear and use language that clearly describes the offensive person as "a sexist". That's your opinion, that's your preference, that's valid, and I haven't done anything to your opinion apart from disagree with it.
Personally I agree with Oxy:
I think it’s an important discussion and reflects on young women and their unwillingness to call out sexism. She was wrong to respond the way she did and I’m not giving anyone a free pass because they’re a woman. I believe our comments showed we understood her unwillingness to call what happened sexism, as it’s a tough industry to do that in.
It's really not about you, and I only continue to reply because there are numerous lurkers for every poster, and people reading this might be interested in the debate.