The virtue signalling gillette advert

[rubyroot]

I see myself as a feminist, have done for a while.

My bloke (who is a pretty masculine SAHH) said he found it insulting.

I had a look and thought it wasn't that bad, but then noticed that they put a few decent images of men on and then say some is not enough and then say we need to teach our boys not to be boys.

What I also noticed is that the 'good men' tend to be black and it therefore seems to be focussed on white masculinity- 1 of the 'bad men' is black and 5 of the 'good men' are black... interesting

Anyhow, I was considering the advert and I think it wouldn't be so bad, but then the ' some' part implies that most men are similar to those on the first part of the vid. So it got me thinking about the men I know and I don't know any men like the ones on the ad- at all! It's really not fair on the majority of men, and I am starting to understand why there is a backlash amongst white men who feel that they are being misrepresented.

And yes I will let my son (he's one) do boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore. He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy and there is a certain biological element there. I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her- all those things we see as masculine.

30% of men say that they would rape a woman if they knew there was no risk to be caught out. RAPE.

This stat comes from a a contested study on us college students, you have extrapolated it to all men anywhere. Do you have such faith in all studies and statistics or is it just ones that tend to support your world view ? Black men are more likely to be absent fathers for example, suddenly an irrelevant fact as long as a "man" is shown by the advertisers. It's dishonest.

OP, I think you show some confusion over what is nature and what is nurture. The way we have built our society means that it's actually pretty impossible to tell what is natural and what is not. For instance, you believe that boys being boisterous and active is 'nature', so you would instinctively reward/tolerate any behaviour like that from a boy, but it's likely that you wouldn't, or at least behave differently, if it came from a girl. Those sort of reactions are subconscious and even if you think you aren't doing it, studies have shown that tiny babies are socialised differently depending on their sex.

The other point is that although not all men behave badly, a very sizeable number too. Sexual harassment, rape and domestic violence are common occurrences that a significant proportion of women experience in their lifetime. That's not because there's the odd 'baddy' hanging around who commits all these crimes- it's because most rapists are what you would deem respectable men, with families, jobs and female friends. You may not want to hear that, but it's true. I have been sexually assaulted at work for instance by more than one man who was married and had a young family. If anything, that enables them to escape with no consequences (why would I grope HER when I have a wife and kids type of thing). I also know women who have been raped by men with wives and families and highly educated good-looking men. I have met women who are beaten and otherwise abused by men who would be described as genuinely good blokes by those around them. It's not just a tiny fraction of men who do this- it really is pretty common. If 25% of women experience domestic abuse over a lifetime, chances are, about 25% of men engage in abusive behaviour towards a partner over a lifetime. So not just a few.

Finally, you say that men will automatically call out bad behaviour and don't need to be told. That is so untrue. The whole culture of lads bantz and bragging means that many many men actively engage in degrading and humiliating women on a regular basis, reducing them to body parts and perceived attractiveness. I know there is a belief that women do this too, but the way that men do it is far more explicit and unkind. Among younger men, there is a culture of filming conquests and showing them to your mates. Look at the Belfast rape trial- guy walks in and sees a friend raping a woman and does precisely nothing and then lies about it. There have been cases also where men have walked in on friend having sex and just assumed they can join in and 'have a go'. When I have complained about harassment to male friends in the past, I have nearly always gotten 'oh, he's just kidding/he's a good guy/get over it'. They absolutely tend to stick up for one another and not take bad male behaviour seriously.

I do think you need to rethink what you excuse simply on the basis of being 'natural' and also what you class as 'masculine' and 'feminine' behaviour because it's this type of thinking that has fuelled female oppression since the dawn of time.

I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her

Also, why shouldn't men and women equally be able to provide for themselves and nurture their family? And why would a grown woman need protection if a grown man does not?

I remember when this series of adverts came out. There was a huge backlash as men pointed out that not all men played cruel pranks on each other or ruined their partner's bath by having a big smelly shit.

Only kidding, there wasn't a murmur. Same with the Lynx adverts, women throwing themselves on the ground acting like animals because of the sexy scent of some body spray. Not a peep.
Obviously no advertiser is going to use catcalling, sexual harassment and rape to sell a product, but you know what? If they did I wouldn't be that surprised if men didn't say a word about it.

I think it's almost worth a comedy sketch. Straight couple on the couch watching telly. Gillette advert comes on, woman gets teary-eyed, turns to bloke and he lobs the remote through the telly.
The difference in reaction is like night and day.
And yes, I think the advert is a bit trite and no I don't really want moralising from a razor manufacturer but it's not less trite or moralising than bank adverts or adverts telling me to buy something to be more green
Someone suggested in a previous thread that it would be a good dating tool, using the advert as a conversation piece to screen for dickheads.

You completely missed the point of the advert. The advert is saying that not only is it not ok for men to not do these things personally but it's also not ok for them to stand by and watch while other men do it. That makes them just as bad as the perpetrator because they're condoning it.

How the ad can be seen as a negative thing absolutely baffles me. You carry on raising your son with toxic masculinity values of men must provide and protect their women, like some sort of modern day caveman. I'd rather raise my sons to be fully aware that both males and females can do anything they want to do regardless of their sex and that they don't need to be bound to harmful gender stereotypes.

it's also not ok for them to stand by and watch while other men do it. That makes them just as bad as the perpetrator because they're condoning it.
Yeah I think that's what has upset so many of them, not the insinuation that all men are like that. They can use that as an excuse.
Very awkward and difficult to suddenly become the guy who doesn't forward the dodgy jokes, or who tells his mates off for eyeing up the teenage waitress and describing how they'd ruin her.
Blokes just won't do it.
Funnily enough they know exactly what bad behaviour looks like, plenty of men will warn a woman off a bloke they know. Or admit in private that he is awful.
But they won't call him out, or challenge him, or dissociate from him. I know so many men with dickhead friends and I ask them why they stay loyal to them. I'm normally met with baffled incredulity - ditching a mate is like swapping your football team allegiance. It just doesn't happen.
Also agree with pp who mentioned men are very different when women aren't there. I'm quite often designated an honorary bloke (not by choice, might I add) and yeah, the things they say and think outside of mixed company would make your toes curl. It's one reason men like men-only spaces. They really do act and talk completely differently.

You've noticed it was mostly black men doing the right thing. I wonder if you'd have noticed if it was mostly white.
There are a lot of hideous stereotypes about black men's behaviour around particularly online so it's a great thing that this ad is going against them.
I don't think white men are in huge danger of dealing with oppression from a Gillette advert

Jaxtellerswife
It's lazy though. The advertiser knows they have to include black men for US advertising, but they wouldn't risk offending black men by using a 50/50 split of white/black "bad guys".
There's no evidence black men are better behaved than white men and white men hate being replaced by a black face, hence why John Boyega got so much shit for being in a Star Wars film. But 50% black "bad guys" would irritate some, who would point out that only 20% of men in the US are black so it's disproportionate.
So Gillette probably weighed up the risks for: shooting an advert with no black men (bad), shooting an advert with 50/50 (bad), shooting an advert where all the black men were good and all the white men bad (bad) and what they actually did, which was to have one black bad guy (iirc).
There would have been meetings about the ratio of baddies to goodies and black men to white men, no doubt. A massive amount of money has been spent here, they didn't do any of this on a whim. Of course it's manipulative, that's advertising for you.

This advert is about and speaking to white men.
Someone added up the behaviour shown. 53 White men are showing in a negative way, compared to 3 white men.

On the contray 6 black men are shown partaking in positive behaviour compared to 3 white men.

The advert clearly about white men and their behaviour. It's also telling them that they need to learn from black men, when it comes to raising children well and treating women the right way.

Yes, but as someone else has said, there is no evidence whatsoever that black or other non-white men behave any better towards women. It’s stupid and dangerous to pretend otherwise. White men are more privileged than men of colour, but men across the globe commit violence against women.

I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her

Protect her from who OP?

So, OP.... you seem to agree that not all men are violent, predatory or abusive, not all women are nurturing and caring, not all boys like cars and trucks, not all girls prefer quiet play to running around etc etc. In fact there are loads and loads of people who don't fit these stereotypes, and in increasing numbers since it became less socially frowned on to not act like a typical boy/girl.

So how on earth can these supposed differences between the sexes be biological and inherent? It is socialisation and confirmation bias. You may claim you user to believe that, but I expect that, like most people, you unconsciously treat boys and girls a bit differently and have slightly different expectations of them. It's very hard to escape our socialisation.

People are seeing the black thing because they want to.

When you actually look at the advert it is balanced.

But, if you want to be the kind of "feminist" who acquiesces to your OH just because he has given his opinion, then go right ahead.

Keep on living those gender stereotypes with your boys whilst the rest of us try to smash them with our girls. That's really helpful🙄

like most people, you unconsciously treat boys and girls a bit differently and have slightly different expectations of them. It's very hard to escape our socialisation.

OP, you might want to watch the BBC documentary called no more boys and girls.

It addresses the socialisation of girls and boys that happens almost subliminally.

Teachers and carers who swore blind they were very aware of, and sensitive to, socialisation, going right ahead and doing it without realising.

Many things were highlighted. I particularly remember the unconscious bias of giving the toddler girls girls' toys. But absolutely insisting it was the child who chose them. Despite those girls actually being boys in disguise. The adults were utterly shocked when the film was played back to them.

The teacher was aghast when the team went through the books in the classroom. Something like 90% of them contained damaging gender stereotypes.

By the age of seven the girls said the only thing they could do better than boys was 'look pretty', and the only emotion the boys could adequately articulate was anger.

By the age of seven.

Yes, but as someone else has said, there is no evidence whatsoever that black or other non-white men behave any better towards women.

Indeed, but there is plenty evidence to suggest other groups treat women a lot worse. We also have the direct testimony of those men, through their music etc. But trying to influence the behaviour of men with different coloured skin is racist, and might offend their culture etc. So we can't have that.

It is socialisation and confirmation bias.

This argument is a bit chicken and egg, either society evolved or someone just made it up. You seem to be arguing it's entirely the latter.

Funkyfunkybeat12
In society that may well be true.

However, in this advert, which has receieved both praise and scorn, the racial messaging is part of the overall message. No doubt black men have issues, but this is an advert for white men.

I want to share something I found frustrating and surprising. My DH did exactly what this advert is asking men to do. A woman at work was temporarily given a managerial role in charge of a group of software developers. She worked alongside my husband rather than in charge of him as he is senior developer. A lot of the guys she was in charge of were grad students. They were giving her a hard time and being obviously difficult and sometimes just not doing what she asked. She started talking to my DH about it and so he agreed and said, they’re doing it because you’re a woman and I think you need to tell someone, you’re going to get this a lot so say something now. Then the next day, really worried he offended her, he apologised and clarified he wasn’t saying it was fair or right, and acknowledged he actually wasn’t supposed to even mention her sex. Which surprised me. Why not, she was a victim of sexism? Anyhow. She complained about my husband. Not an official complaint, but a mention. His boss called him in, understood, but advised him not to intervene or help again. He’s spoken with another senior female and she said she would of told him off too. He also said to me, that if the issue was homophobia or transphobia, there would have been no issue with him speaking out or mentioning someone was being targeted because of their sexuality. I asked him, what is the policy then when you see sexism? Should he have complained to his boss and not offered support in the office directly? He said, possibly ok but if he started doing it regularly he would be likely be let go ( contractor not employee ).

Just thought I’d mention it as in the workplace, it’s actually difficult in practice for men to show support or talk about sexism. It was ok though, when the boss asked a room of men what they thought about a new recruitment programme for women, and for the men to complain and say how ridiculous and sexist it was.

My DH did exactly what this advert is asking men to do

No he didn't. He approached her, not the men giving her a hard time.

He’s not allowed to, that’s the point. He’s not their line manager. He’s not an employee. He told her to complain because he’s not allowed to. He has stopped work social events at strip clubs.

In real life, he has, but the point is work environments don’t allow for it.

sackrifice

Exactly. The ad is suggesting men call out other men. Not go up to the victim and tell her how to handle it.

Also, the guys were given a warning eventually but sexism was never mentioned. Just that they were being disrespectful and not doing their jobs.

I didn't see the ad as showing men how to go through official channels to address institutional sexism.

I saw it as how to make it uncool. With a lift of the eyebrow, or a shake of the head.

A social movement.

The ad is suggesting men call out other men. Not go up to the victim and tell her how to handle it.

HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO. Ffs. He was trying to support her.