The virtue signalling gillette advert

[rubyroot]

I see myself as a feminist, have done for a while.

My bloke (who is a pretty masculine SAHH) said he found it insulting.

I had a look and thought it wasn't that bad, but then noticed that they put a few decent images of men on and then say some is not enough and then say we need to teach our boys not to be boys.

What I also noticed is that the 'good men' tend to be black and it therefore seems to be focussed on white masculinity- 1 of the 'bad men' is black and 5 of the 'good men' are black... interesting

Anyhow, I was considering the advert and I think it wouldn't be so bad, but then the ' some' part implies that most men are similar to those on the first part of the vid. So it got me thinking about the men I know and I don't know any men like the ones on the ad- at all! It's really not fair on the majority of men, and I am starting to understand why there is a backlash amongst white men who feel that they are being misrepresented.

And yes I will let my son (he's one) do boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore. He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy and there is a certain biological element there. I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her- all those things we see as masculine.

What should he have done differently?
Honestly? What he's done in being that honest was trusted her. He's given unpolished advice. His advice was 100% correct. She didn't want to hear it.
Options left are: ignore it (makes him culpable and uncomfortable); raise a grievance on her behalf (could be seen as patronising); speak to the young men himself (not an option as you've said) or perhaps just complain from his own perspective. The last option is the most neutral, if he'd gone to management and said "these guys aren't doing what their manager is asking them to, they're really disrespectful to her and it's making my job harder" then it doesn't matter if she refuses to see the root cause.
I think I'd give her the same advice as your husband did though TBH.

Oxytocindeficient that's grim

So I’d like to share a conversation I had with DS2 (14) after the ad went viral. Don’t worry it’s not one of those my two year old said this and everyone clapped type of posts.

DS: Hey Mum have you seen that Gillette Ad?
Me: Yep it’s caused a huge fuss, I didn’t mind it.
DS: WTF Mum? Everyone is saying it’s trying to make out men and boys are evil.
Me: Everyone or idiots on the internet?
DS: I can’t believe agree with it.
Me: C’mon dude do you really think if it about that I’d support it? I love you boys you know I wouldn’t tolerate that shit.
DS: But
Me: Do you wanna hear my take on it? I want you to listen to what I’m gonna say and I need you to think about it.
DS: Ok
Me: Well see, I think it’s sending a different message. Do you remember how you were telling me how upset your friend “S” was because that dickhead at her school was going up to her and the other girls and pinching their bums and grabbing their boobs?
DS: Yeah and I said that was sexual assault and you agreed.
Me: Yep. And do you remember when your brother grabbed “K” and made him delete his posts that were slut shaming his friend “B”?
DS: Yeah I thought he was gonna put him through the wall.
Me: See that’s what the ads about. It’s trying to get people to speak up when they see someone behaving like that. Do you think that’s a bad thing?
DS: Well no I guess not when you put it like that.
Me: That’s good because you know, that’s what Dad and I have always tried to teach you and your brother.
DS: Ok. Wanna watch a movie?

I’m glad I had this conversation. But I’m annoyed I had to. I also suggested that he maybe have a think about the kind of people that would try and justify that behaviour.

Oh sorry about the language, as teenagers I don’t really police language too much at home when expressing strong opinions. Name calling swearing not on though. At their ages they know how to conduct themselves in public.

oxy

For you and yours

Oxy

it really is such a heartbreaking but powerful movie. It was on tv the other day. Even DH commented how upsetting it is to watch.

Thank you We’ve discussed what he could do differently and the only option is to raise a complaint himself. He’s worried because of the industry he’s in and the fact he’s a contractor means if they don’t like him raising sexism, and they don’t, they’ll just let him go. He did already raise it with his own manager, just as a casual, they’re making this difficult. They continued until she came to him and then her boss some weeks later. The other issue was, he was brought in to fix a project and identify the problems. So all of them hated him anyway! Because the problem was they hadn’t written very good code. Incidentally, even though the big bosses knew that, they let them continue because they didn’t want to demoralise young people. So I guess a nutty place overall. He also said something because he’s seen so many women leave the IT industry because it’s so horrible for them. He’s just a pretty lone voice sadly. It was only because there were Muslims that joined the office that agreed with him on the boozy strip Club get togethers that they stopped. Everyone else just shrugged and said it was harmless- he never joined them at strip clubs FYI.

Sorry to slightly derail.

You want your son to be protective of his girlfriend and family...protect them from what?

Men?

Another good kiwi movie about Māori culture is Whale Rider. Our culture is quite sexist, women don’t speak on the Marae ( Whina Cooper was one who defied that ). I literally cried throughout Whale Rider. It’s powerful and moving.

YABU. I genuinely don’t understand what there is to object to in the ad.

Hermagsjesty
You need better bait than that mate

Hermagsjesty
I don't know what I thought I read, but my reply to you makes no sense. Apologies.

I used to believe nurture over nature- now I have a child and have seen other friend's children I do think there's a biological element to how we behave. I do think women are more sensitive and caring- this is not a bad trait. I think boys tend to boy more active and impulsive and I think girls tend to think things through a bit more. Not that they wouldn't explore, but I would expect boys would be 'more on the go”

I call total BS on this. That is a very much confirmation bias based on early socialization.

There have been studies showing how people treat babies dressed in pink versus blue based on their expectation of their sex, even if the girls were in blue and boys in pink. There is a school in Norway I think that shows nurture is a very strong element; they separate boys and girls and teach the boys to give each other shoulder massages, to share feelings, and the girls to explore and share their opinions and shocker, and results show how much that nurture affects their interactions even outside the classes.

If I described the traits of my brother and I, or what things we each liked to do for fun, our hobbies, our jobs, you would not be able to tell which of us was for him and which for me just by assuming they were more of a certain sex. I am also as far from a caretaking “nurturing” type as you can get unless those being nurtured are fuzzy and purr. I am a person.

The daft thing about the Gillette ad is that none of their previous ones (that I can remember) showed toxic masculinity anyway. Weren’t they all ‘chiselled man on yacht/playing sport/looking broodingly into the middle distance/spinning small child around followed by ‘adoring glamorous woman strokes cheek.’ ? I mean cheesy as, but nothing I’d describe as toxic at all. Stereotypical yes, but not toxic.

They didn’t need to do the grovelling and woke cookies shit.

I believe most kids are high energy and active, and that boys are allowed and encouraged and girls are discouraged from being so.

Just look at how kids are dressed - a girl sent to preschool in a pretty dress and flimsy shoes is far less likely to be up a tree playing, or wallowing in the mud. Her brother sent in in trousers, boots etc can.

I’ve posted it elsewhere, but it does make the point for me :

www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/oops-did-our-advert-piss-off-dickheads-asks-razor-blade-company-20190116181425

If it’s biological, why would you need to teach him?

Indeed.

I actually try to not put expectations on my son. My husband is not impressed mind, when I say its fine for him to be wearing princess dresses and such if he choses to instead of 'boyish' stuff. But we are getting there. His NURSERY actually approached us and asked if we had considered he may be trans..this is going back a year and a bit now. You can imagine my response really. Their thinking was that he was about 50/50 when playing dressing up for 'girls' stuff and 'boys' stuff, same with toys. But..thats just what happened when we specifically tried to NOT push him in one direction. So no, he is not trans, he has no issues with his body, he just dies not follow stereotypes in the way most other little boys do, and I am sure its because of how we raised him tbh. Masculinity and femininity is learnt behaviour mainly IMO. My daughter is the same, but noone thinks its 'odd' that girls are 'tomboys'. We did go OTT with pink shite when I was pregnant with her though, but I forgive myself as she was my first child!

Errrr they did! There’s plenty of marketing pics etc showing beautiful women in tight body suits etc

I love that advert, it's great.

@Oxy speaking as a woman in tech, which is I guess where your husband is there are a couple of things that he could do differently next time. TBC, I would not have made a complaint about his behaviour, but there were a couple of things he said that would have raised my hackles until I took a step back to think about them (and I am so used to doing this that your DH would probably not even have been aware of it).

He commented to her that it was happening because she's a womanit isn't, actually. It happened because those grad students were dickheads. It also doesn't matter whether she is a woman, man, or green flying monkeytheir behaviour would be unacceptable.

If something like this happens in the future, he could stick with saying he doesn't think that behaviour is ok--that is actually support enough, for most of us. Also, if the grad students are on some kind of work placement, my recommendation next time would be to find out who their academic supervisor is and report them to that person. Any university worth its salt will give them a fair old bollocking.

it was happening because she's a woman--it isn't, actually
You could argue that of any discrimination, you realise that?
"He wasn't being racist, he just refuses to work with Asian people because he's a dickhead"
"He isn't ageist, he just didn't hire that person because he's a dickhead"
"He's just an edgelord"
"It's just his sense of humour"

Plus you weren't there. And you're not a man. So how can you know a: what was said other than what has been posted or b: how men recognise misogyny in each other.

It happened because those grad students were dickheads. oh he made that clear, but used the word juvenile so got in trouble for that. He simply stated these types of guys only do it to women. Anyway, I think it’s safe to say he won’t do anything next time. He isn’t good with personal communication as it is and is worried he’ll be let go if he says anything remotely like that in the future.

@FkyingOink, not what I said at all. The grad students are sexist. They are probably also racist, and discriminatory in all sorts of ways. To say to someone "this is happening because you're X" is to blame them for it, and condemn them to a lifetime of it. Centering the fact that their target (this time) was a woman blames her womanness for it. Living in an environment where I do not fit in because of my sex, any further drawing attention to it just reminds me that I don't fit in, and that I will never fit in, and to some extent suggests I should either go find myself a female-dominated field or put up with it. THIS is why centering the discussion on the piss poor behaviour of those behaving piss poorly is important.

To say to someone "this is happening because you're X" is to blame them for it, and condemn them to a lifetime of it

Don’t misrepresent what my husband did thank you. He didn’t say it’s ‘because she’s a women’ in those words, which I clarified. He certainly didn’t blame her and made it clear. They did it because they are juvenile and sexist, which he made clear, they have a problem because they can’t handle the fact a women is telling them what to do. He made that clear. What he also said was, you don’t have to put up with that. Unfortunately she didn’t want to make a proper complaint about sexism because she doesn’t want to be seen to be making an issue of her sex. Which I think anyone can understand. The problem is if they do it again, and I think they will, they won’t have their history on record. Which is why my husband told her to lay a complaint, because he’s seen lots of intelligent and skilled women pushed out of the industry- he could count on one hand how many he has worked with over the years. She seemed to take issue with him raising their age, and labelling it as sexist. She is new to the industry and probably doesn’t want the fact she’s a woman to be a focus, for her as much as anyone else. So even acknowledging sexism would be a big thing. That is my take on it now.

You could argue that of any discrimination, you realise that?

Yup agreed. My father is racist, including to his own children. He’s a dickhead, for sure, but he’s also racist and has a problem with his own children and ex wife because of our race/colour. That’s the reality. He treated us like that because of our race. That doesn’t make our race the problem, it makes his racism the problem.

is to blame them for it, and condemn them to a lifetime of it
Disagree entirely. Pointing out that someone is being racist or sexist or homophobic can be really powerful, especially if the target has any internalised issues themselves. Ever seen the guy laughing along at jokes about his race to fit in? I have. "What's the matter, he thinks it's funny, don't be such a killjoy"
If I point out that the joke was racist am I condemning him to a lifetime of it? How on Earth would that be my responsibility?
This chap pointed out that the behaviour was driven by sexism. He can recognise that because he is a man and has lots of experience, having seen it many times before. She disagreed with him. That's up to her.
Him telling her he believed it was due to sexism is still totally valid. And if she internalises that, and feels bad about herself because of it, and allows abuse because it has affected her self esteem, none of that is his fault. It's not blaming her at all. Victim blaming and pointing out something he has seen before and recognises are not the same thing.
If I point out to someone that I think their relationship is unhealthy I have done that (at risk to myself) because I am concerned for them, not because I want to blame them for it! How is this different?

Oxytocindeficient your husband sounds like an awesome chap, you've posted a few things about him in various threads and he sounds brilliant.