The virtue signalling gillette advert

[rubyroot]

I see myself as a feminist, have done for a while.

My bloke (who is a pretty masculine SAHH) said he found it insulting.

I had a look and thought it wasn't that bad, but then noticed that they put a few decent images of men on and then say some is not enough and then say we need to teach our boys not to be boys.

What I also noticed is that the 'good men' tend to be black and it therefore seems to be focussed on white masculinity- 1 of the 'bad men' is black and 5 of the 'good men' are black... interesting

Anyhow, I was considering the advert and I think it wouldn't be so bad, but then the ' some' part implies that most men are similar to those on the first part of the vid. So it got me thinking about the men I know and I don't know any men like the ones on the ad- at all! It's really not fair on the majority of men, and I am starting to understand why there is a backlash amongst white men who feel that they are being misrepresented.

And yes I will let my son (he's one) do boy things- run around, be active, climb, explore. He will be taught to be masculine as he is a boy and there is a certain biological element there. I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her- all those things we see as masculine.

It's like how drink-driving is now uncool. It's socially unacceptable. As is not wearing a seatbelt. It makes the person doing it look like a wanker.

Whereas a few short years ago, it was entirely socially acceptable.

HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO.

I don't understand this. If you are saying he's not allowed to tell them to get on with their jobs, I get it.

But that's not what the ad is about.

Although I don't understand what constituted her complaint. Perhaps that's not clear from your post.

whatnow123 I get that but it seems strange to suggest that men of colour act any differently. It’s patently untrue. I think the focus should be on male behaviour in general, not suggesting that one race is more culpable than another. But of course I recognise that if the ad had featured predominantly black men as the bad ones, white men could just assume that it wasn’t aimed at them because men of colour are the real problem. So I can see why they did it.

Yes and echo a pp, telling the victim that she is being bullied because she is a woman isn’t the way forward and I might complain too. Speak to the perpetrators even if not their line manager or speak to higher up person in the company. Speak to your own line manager. Say something when you see it happening. You can do that even if you’re not strictly responsible for someone’s behaviour at work.

Yes Datun you’re right that it’s about what is socially acceptable. Casual sexism is still seen as acceptable, especially by men, which is why they do it. You can call it out even if you don’t have official authority over someone. Or at least report it to that person’s superior.

Gillette have taken the ad off their own YouTube channel, all I can see are dozens of news channel reports.

Men who do nothing and let things carry on as they are are the problem.

Until these men start pulling the toxic ones up, until they challenge speech or actions by others and until they take action themselves instead of leaving it to someone else, they are as big a problem as the rapists, bullies and murderers.

They didn’t give the guy previously in charge, on extended leave, a hard time. They questioned every damn thing she said and outright refused to do things, said inappropriate jokes in front of her and more besides. We are self employed, he’s a contractor and has less rights etc and less ability to complain. Contractors who are difficult are easily let-go. He’s autistic and an autistic colleague was let go for being too difficult before. He’s not allowed to make complaints about it, firstly because he was hearing it second hand from her- that’s why he advised her to complain, because she was upset and telling him about it. Secondly, because he’s worked in the industry and understands how it works re sexism, it would actually mean jeapordising his job. They don’t want complaints about sexism. A lot of them already don’t appreciate him ending the strip club functions, or socially speaking to the grad students about it. The older guys just love to initiate the grad students at strip clubs. One of his long time colleagues follows that guy who writes books about how to get away with raping women.. I forget his name.

I get that but it seems strange to suggest that men of colour act any differently

I agree funky. I’m Polynesian and we have a massive problem with violent men and the covering up of abuse. Our community did not like Once Were Warriors when it first got written, even though it’s accurate.

He had seen them being difficult but not the full extent. He wasn’t directly in their team, as he was pulled in from another project to consult with managers.

Okay, but what did she base her complaint on? The fact he called it sexism? Even though she had been the one complaining to him?

I'm not disputing what you're saying Oxy, it's just a bit confusing from your post.

FYI I’m trying not to identify him or the workplace.

I was also confused why she complained and don’t really understand the ‘rules’ at this large organisation. He’s apparently not allowed to mention her sex. The offending phrase was, I’d advise you to complain now as this industry is like this for women and they’re only doing this because of your sex, which will keep happening to you. It’s why he apologised and calirifed to her. She seemed to be both complaining about sexism but also not wanting to accept she was targeted because she was a woman? Either way, the offence was saying ‘ you’re being treated this way because you’re a woman’. He just wanted to validate her experience and say exactly what it was: sexism. She is young and has some chronic illness, so I think was scared to make a complaint herself. Obviously he could of worded it better. What he can’t do is directly accuse them of sexism or anything else, as he’s not their manager and is not an employee. He had a bit of a Tourette’s episode in work that week, so it may also be him also being worried about speaking out and overly paranoid. I’m sorry if I’ve not been clear, i don’t fully understand the situation or why she complained either. It’s difficult for him to communicate things like this. The upshot for him is that, in the workplace, in the IT industry, you’ll be shunned for speaking out about sexism but not homophobia etc

Oxytocindeficient I can't see what your husband did wrong. If she had posted about what she was complaining about to him on here the responses would have been the other men are behaving like that because she is a woman.

Yes I can't see what he did wrong either.

How can you address sexism if you're not allowed to mention sex? And why can't you? Because it's sexist?

It's neat trick if you can get away with it.

I want him to be able to provide for himself, nurture his family, treat his girlfriend well and protect her

Also, why shouldn't men and women equally be able to provide for themselves and nurture their family? And why would a grown woman need protection if a grown man does not?

Interesting... you support an ad where women need protection from men, but we shouldn't encourage our boys to do this.

Okay.

I understand the nuances of nature/nurture and if you read the full thread you will also see I would raise my girl to be strong and protective too as I think the gender stereotypes for girls in some ways are worse.

But being protective, nurture his family, being able to provide for himself- that's not toxic masculinity- is it. And so its been inferred that as I may be raising my boy according to these values then I will be encouraging him to be someone who abuses women. No- sorry, thats a gigantic quantum leap- of course he will be taught all the other things such as respect, kindness etc.

Okay, it sounds like he was treated unfairly. Seems a bit off for her to complain about him when the real problem was her team and he was only trying to be supportive.

First two lines should be in quotes

I know. He was confused and apologetic because he so often has issues with communication so is super careful to make sure he doesn’t hurt someone’s feelings.

Just clarified. She didn’t make an official complaint about either him or the guys, just had a word to their managers. She complained that he said ‘ juvenile sexism’. She is young. Being ageist is a big thing there and even mentioning you’re more experienced in front of young people is frowned upon. In addition, as I now understand it, she wouldn’t acknowledge officially it was sexism. That’s why her eventual complaint was just mentioned to managers and she said it was difficulties taking orders. She’s very beautiful, they’re young. He’s seen this a thousand times.

I’m sorry if I have not articulated this well and for being defensive. I actually feel bad about the whole thing because I’m always telling him to speak out and it’s very difficult for autistic people- he stutters and stuff and gets confused on a social level. Talk about software engineering and it’s a different matter!

So the complaint was "he didn't give me the advice I wanted re. the interpersonal issues I've had with the team and instead just told me it was because I am a woman"
So she's the type who drank all the Kool Aid.
That's unfortunate for him that she doesn't appreciate honest concern. I hope it hasn't put him off challenging shitty behaviour in future.

How can you address sexism if you're not allowed to mention sex? And why can't you? Because it's sexist?

I know! That’s my point! I was angry at her for a bit but I know it’s not her fault. It’s the fucking world we live in.

I have white male children and I thought it was an excellent ad. Ok, its woke, virtue signalling, designed to sell razors etc but damn they had a point! Also taking a risk which I admire - all the neanderthals that were offended by it wont be buying.

Toxic masculinity is damaging, has blighted my life and Im glad we're in the middle of a.societal sea change. Glad for me and glad for my white boys

Our community did not like Once Were Warriors when it first got written, even though it’s accurate.
It was difficult to watch.

FlyingOink thank you. It has put him off but only in the workplace. I have chronic illnesses and can’t work full time. Our daughter is autistic too. So he’s always worried about money and providing for us. He doesn’t want to jeopardise his job but also equally feels guilty about it because he wants to do the right thing. What should he have done differently? He asked and they said, don’t mention age or sex. I’m also confused!

I got the impression in your OP that you were suggesting that these were ‘masculine’ values and you were the one who kept talking about nature and inherent personality traits.

It’s not about needing protection- it’s about men taking responsibility for the behaviour that they as a class engage in. No, not all men do it, but a very large number of men either do it on a low level or tolerate others that do. It’s not about women as weak victims, it’s about men making an effort to behave like decent human beings.

I am glad that you will raise both your son and daughter to be strong yet caring and will not have different expectations of them based on stereotypes.

It was difficult to watch. Yup. My dad was violent so I cried, literally howled, in the movie theatre.